Vocals - Warning, a bit long

OK, as I start gearing up for my next project - whichever one of the current three it turns out to be - I find myself least happy about the situation for vocals.

I have been very lucky that for my game and for my last video project (9 YKK animations if you're curious) that I was able to find some good folks at the Voice Acting Alliance. But on both projects as I neared the end, those good folks got tired of the work, and I had to become a bit of a bother to get the last lines in. I understand these folks are giving me a service at no charge, and I'm not upset with any of them. I got great stuff at a great price. But I have a hard time looking forward to doing that again - particularly when any of my next projects will be much longer, and have a larger cast.

So, what are the options? I've tried the TTF packages out there, and even the paid ones are not particularly convincing. Besides, I need several male and female voices and most offer only two or three of each. I've tried other sites, but have had more troubles there than I've ever had through VAA. I even purchased a copy of VCS Voice Changer Diamond, and with some work I can get a reasonably decent couple of female and couple of male voices. But that isn't going to give me a full cast.

I could consider paying the voice actors, of course. But to pay enough to actually make a difference (no one is going to change their weekend plans for $5-$10) would almost bankrupt me. Particularly since I don't charge (and if I did I'd have to start paying most of the musicians as well, which just digs the hole deeper) for the end product.

Is there anything I'm missing? Any tool I'm not aware of (hardware or software) that can generate a believable variety of voices (or mod one voice into a variety of others). Given that you can get your artwork through a tool like MS, which also gives you virtual actors you can pose and control, and that you can find plenty of free music to score your work, it would be nice to finish the circle and make it truly possible for one person with a vision to do the whole thing.

TIA,
Ewan

Presuming that one lacks the vocal versatility of a Mel Blanc or a Rich Little or a Frank Welker (and really, what are the percentages on THAT?), finding and maintaining a reliable (and affordable) repertory is one of the big hurdles for many of us. One option - the one I use most often - is to simply ask around among friends and relatives. Granted, I'm kind of lucky in that I've worked in radio for nearly two decades, and have garnered a number of acquaintances who are used to doing voice work for little to no money (

) upon whom I can call for the occasional favor.

Another option is to look around for fledgling actors near you; drama schools or perhaps a community theater company... people with some level of theatrical training and/or experience, who might be willing to provide their services, receiving in exchange a credit they can add to their résumé, or a clip for their demo reel. Yet another is to inquire around here. There are several members in this very community who have guest-starred in one another's productions. The caveat here, of course, is that many, if not most of us are working on projects of our own, and in addition to having limited availability due to there just not being enough hours in the day, may very well be having the same casting problems you're experiencing, and may end up as your (friendly) competition for the available resources. You could even try posting casting notices on sites such as Craigslist.

Essentially, in almost all cases, though, it comes down to networking of one sort or another.

EwanG wrote:

OK, as I start gearing up for my next project - whichever one of the current three it turns out to be - I find myself least happy about the situation for vocals....(snip)

One suggestion, you said that there were only 2-3 voices per TTF package. If you use 5 different ones, that is a minimum of 10, as long as they don't all use the exact same voices.

Another is the business model you are using. Start finding ways to charge for the project (Ad sharing sites, profit sharing like AtomFilms or Revver, direct sales of higher quality vs low quality free version like Red Vs. Blue) and share the profits with the people helping. If they know that some money is coming, that might help as well.

I appreciate the thought behind the two replies so far. However, I'm asking if there is any way OTHER than getting other folks involved to do voices to get multiple voices.

The TTF packages all use pretty much the same AT&T or Microsoft voices, so getting more than one doesn't really help.

In addition to just the practical need here, I've known a few folks who believe that movies can't really be art because it's almost always a team effort. Art, at it's core, is an expression of an ideal or concept by an individual. An individual can do a complete painting by themselves. They can do photography, sculpting, etc. by themselves. But to create a film in the traditional sense takes a large group of folks, and there are always compromises that have to be made to get things done at all.

MS and other products in this genre promise to give us the ability to finally be able to create a movie as a complete embodiment of that ideal. As such, it's disappointing that we still fall short because of this one missing element.

I suppose it's time to sit down and think about how to create a movie in MS that doesn't actually have dialog - or that has dialog that sounds ok if it sounds processed. Of course if anyone has any suggestions about non-people tools for creating voices...

EwanG wrote:

I appreciate the thought behind the two replies so far...(snip)

There are several voice changing software packages out there. Morphvox has built in voices, but also the ability to save custom settings that you could label by character name. This works for both male and female characters (I am using it for a female character in my own series that I was unable to cast).

Finding local theatre groups as suggested is also a good idea, though with both advantages and drawbacks like any other idea. College has just let out here and all the drama students at my local college (20 minutes walk) are free for the summer. If you have a local college with a drama class you might look into that, but be sure to have finished scripts. Having to call back for changes will likely cause problems as they will be busy doing homework and other things.

Drawback to using software? One person is one voice. You are right back to needing to be Mel Blanc or the like to give different inflections and such for each character. Sure they sound different, but not 'acting' differently. The drawbacks to having live actors you are already dealing with.

Movies not art? Nonsense. Look at the Brothers Hildebrandt. Is there art not art because there are 2 brothers? No, teamwork counts and makes the finished result a better stew of differenting flavors IMHO.

EwanG wrote:

I appreciate the thought behind the two replies so far. However, I'm asking if there is any way OTHER than getting other folks involved to do voices to get multiple voices.

The TTF packages all use pretty much the same AT&T or Microsoft voices, so getting more than one doesn't really help.

In addition to just the practical need here, I've known a few folks who believe that movies can't really be art because it's almost always a team effort. Art, at it's core, is an expression of an ideal or concept by an individual. An individual can do a complete painting by themselves. They can do photography, sculpting, etc. by themselves. But to create a film in the traditional sense takes a large group of folks, and there are always compromises that have to be made to get things done at all.

MS and other products in this genre promise to give us the ability to finally be able to create a movie as a complete embodiment of that ideal. As such, it's disappointing that we still fall short because of this one missing element.

I suppose it's time to sit down and think about how to create a movie in MS that doesn't actually have dialog - or that has dialog that sounds ok if it sounds processed. Of course if anyone has any suggestions about non-people tools for creating voices...

The actors make the movie and I have been so fortunate to be able to recruit fine actors for my movies. My latest movie GONE has several well known actors and even a professional actor from New York, Sean Blanco. I also do a lot of the voices myself as I am a very versatile voice actress.

As far as using computer voices. The only one I have found were Cepstral that was decent. But even with that exceptional program, the only ones I use are the French and Spanish accent ones and only for very short lines. However, if you do a little research you will find that a lot of people are working on improving and humanizing computer voices.

I love working with actors and I never have a problem finding people. I also subscribe to Radio Daddy but have yet had to ask for any voiceovers. Professional actors and radio personalities do voice overs for you. And you in turn volunteer to do voice overs for their radio shows. It does not seem to be a problem at all to find people who will do voiceovers for you there either. Most of the roles get snapped up right away.

I love working with the actors

Finding good actors who are suitable for particular roles in amateur productions is not easy at all, and I also I think that the main voice performances contribute 2/3 of the emotion of a movie.
I begin to wonder if finding the actors first and then writing around them might be the answer. I begin to wonder if the whole of the film making quest is in making good enough, interesting enough film that a really good actor(ress) will want to work for nothing just to be involved.
Will it take years and drive us all crazy?

kkffoo wrote:

Finding good actors who are suitable for particular roles in amateur productions is not easy at all, and I also I think that the main voice performances contribute 2/3 of the emotion of a movie.
I begin to wonder if finding the actors first and then writing around them might be the answer. I begin to wonder if the whole of the film making quest is in making good enough, interesting enough film that a really good actor(ress) will want to work for nothing just to be involved.
Will it take years and drive us all crazy?

I am just not having any problem finding actors as I said before. I think all you have to do is ask. I found Sadi Ranson_Polizzotti because I happened upon a site that has a lot of audio clips of people reading their own stories and poetry. I initially asked her if I could make movies using her readings as backgrounds for storys and then I asked her if she would do a role for GONE. And she said "yes". She was delightful. Sean Blanco came on here and offered his services. Roger and Alex Burlong-Strange have been in a couple of my movies and they are wonderful to work with. I think if any of you asked these people to do voice overs for you they would be more than willing. Also Synnah, Saument and Dick Swayze from Moviestorm just offered and they are also fine actors. Josh Peterson is a young filmmaker I have gotten to know through another movie making site and he is a wonderful actor and can do a variety of voices. He hardly ever gets anyone asking him to do roles. And of course my husband Mark who plays a large role in GONE, was more than willing and he is a very good actor and has a beautiful voice. Felisha Hartman who did the role of Amy is a teenage friend of ours. She actually recorded that monologue in her own words and I just used the entire thing.

I think a thing that I do that helps is that I do not make a lot of demands on the actors. I do not require that they record line by line or do any kind of sound manipulation to the files. I just tell them to record the whole thing in one file. If they go ahead an cut it into separate lines that is fine. And if I have problems with sound, I rarely ask them to redo a line. I have Adobe Audition and that cleans up sound a lot. Also I don't ask unless I intend to finish a movie. A big problem I have had in the past with doing voiceovers is that about half the movies I have done voiceovers for have never been finished.

Now my own 14 year old daughter was another problem. I had to buy her about $90 with of beauty products to get her to finish. But she is so good that i don't want to try to find anyone else to do her role, besides she adlibbed most of her dialogue. I can sure see a budding star in the making - at least one who will sure get what she wants.

And of course I can do a lot of different voices myself so that helps.

I think you just have to go out and ask people to do this and you will find they are more than wiling to help out.

OK, I counted up, and Camp Handiba has one middle aged female voice, eleven teenage females, and five teenage males. I may try to go the "traditional" route, but really have serious doubts in my mind about getting 17 folks to do 400 minutes of dialog. And that's "season" 1. My outline covers two seasons of similar length.

Maybe it's just too big a story to tell without financial backing? I'm starting to think that if the only answer is get that many volunteers than maybe it's time to look back at other things that are smaller. Though I'm disappointed because I'd really like to be able to find some way to tell the story.

Oh well...

400 min of dialogue is a lot. And would require a lot of footage to go with.

Are all the characters actually required to tell the story? Similarly, are all the scenes required?
If you could cut things down to a more managable sise, you might have an easier time finding the volunteer actors for it.

I guess finding drama students might be a good way to get lots of voices cheaply. It is still going to require quite a bit of organisation, though.

EwanG wrote:

OK, I counted up, and Camp Handiba has one middle aged female voice, eleven teenage females, and five teenage males. I may try to go the "traditional" route, but really have serious doubts in my mind about getting 17 folks to do 400 minutes of dialog. And that's "season" 1. My outline covers two seasons of similar length.

Maybe it's just too big a story to tell without financial backing? I'm starting to think that if the only answer is get that many volunteers than maybe it's time to look back at other things that are smaller. Though I'm disappointed because I'd really like to be able to find some way to tell the story.

Oh well...

I wondered how you were doing with this and now that I see you need 17 teenage female voices, I can see the problem. The problem with using kids to record (and I have teenagers myself so there are a lot of kids around who want to do this) is that usually they can't act. My daughter is an exception. She is a terrific actress but very tempermental. And she d insists on being paid. LOL. And she can't quite get the idea that you can't run around and jump when you are recording - ruins the sound quality.

However, if you do find kids who will do this, even if they can't act, here is a solution. You set up the scene for them and you have them improvise. Their acting ability increases wonderfully when they improvise and you get all the adolescent slang they use which is great too.

Matt K might be able to help - we have something (kof) running with a local acting course that has proven to be of great value to us already. PM Matt and see what he can do? (we're mad mad mad mad busy getting something ready to release, but I am sure we will be able to pass a message on)

Do we hear the clink of hand-cuffs or is that wishful thinking? (re: something to release)

I've decided, for the time being, to just wait for 1.1 to come out, and then to go ahead and "shoot" the entire episodes without vocals. I will then add subtitles to the final product. I did a little experiment with the first couple episodes using some talent over the net, and with that many folks and voices, it just wasn't working.

I think for the average production using a handful of voices that the various solutions discussed on here are reasonable. But when you try to make something this big, then something has to give - either budget or vocals. Unfortunately, in this case the budget is rather absolute