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#21 Guest_yolise_*

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 09:25 AM

QUOTE (William87 @ May 14 2009, 07:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, if that person is set out to give a revenge review, with this system, you'll see who it is, and I'd think that person would rather give their negative review as anonymous.

Of course, with the thumbs up system, that person probably would've just passed as well.

The rating system isn't that important to be honest. A comment/feedback is worth such more than a simple thumbs up/rating though.

The system is designed so that ratings are *not* anonymous, but I have hidden that for the present as it wasn't something I'd seen before. You can currently disallow ratings on your movies, but that also takes you out of the Highest Rated sorting. There is, nevertheless, still Most Viewed, Most Discussed and Top Favourites, so there's a wide range of ways people can get their movies seen.

I'm kind of coming around to the idea that the ratings *shouldn't* be anonymous, but I am still ready to be convinced otherwise. There simply doesn't seem to be a consensus so far and at some point, if that remains, I may have to take the decision myself. smile.gif

#22 Guest_yolise_*

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 09:49 AM

Actually, the decision has sort of been made for us now. Hiding those broke the entire page, so it's back to how it was for now.

Don't forget yu can opt out of ratings on your movies by going to your Account, then My Movies, then edit the movie you want to disallow ratings for.

#23 Overman


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Posted 15 May 2009 - 03:35 AM

QUOTE (kkffoo @ May 14 2009, 06:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the potential problem with an opt-out system is if viewers are allowed to sort by ratings.
In that case opting out might mean less views than a movie might have received if everyone was on the same system.

This is a very valid concern to be aware of when using the opt-out. In fact, I've read a study that pretty effectively demonstrated this is precisely what happens to movies that opt out of receiving ratings vs. those that allow them (study was on YouTube). Same is true for videos that do not allow comments (and even, to a much milder degree, videos that do not allow video responses, milder b/c this feature just isn't used nearly as often as text comments).

Part of what I took away from that was the notion that people (in general) want to rate, they want to participate in various ways. It's part of the whole Web 2.0 spirit. And it's my opinion that, in the same way a viewer has been shown to be less likely to watch a movie that has their feedback options restricted, I think there is the same risk on a website basis... that people will choose a site with more open feedback options over one that has fewer. That's just theory, but it doesn't seem like a non sequitur leap.
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#24 kkffoo


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Posted 15 May 2009 - 07:05 AM

I guess it isn't completely necessary to tell you that web 2.0 isn't part of my current vocabulary Phil, but I'm sure the concept will filter in at some point.
I do wonder if five star ratings are a yoof issue.
I see a site that has them, I see some idiot thing which is the top rated vid on that site and my heart sinks. (of course some sites have excellent quality vids as their top rated)
Compare that to the experience of finding a site which has thoughtful comments under videos..ok not every comment, on every video, it only take one or two insightful comments ot switch me on to that site..
"oo interesting people here"
Vimeo strikes me as an example of that kind of culture, as do the participants here at Moviestorm.
I tend, without realising it, to lean towards those more sophisticated reactions to my (our) work rather than larger numbers of random eyeballs. I get more back from the viewer who thinks about what they see long enough to find out more about what we do.
However I am not against high viewer numbers..bring them on!...it is just that somehow having personal feedback from individuals seems to feel more meaningful and satisfying.

The ratings system isn't going to prevent me from participating here, but having asked the question..why? I now have an answer..
That for whatever reason (cost? secuirty?) the new forum isn't very amenable to being modded, and that whoever chose the new system didn't have a huge choice.

#25 AngriBuddhist


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Posted 15 May 2009 - 08:26 AM

Is it me or are there multiple conversations going on here? Sure, a few people are responding directly to each other but are they actually talking about the same thing?

Our current topics include-

- the more types, and more specific, feedback the better.
- comments mean more than ratings.
- a user should be anonymous when rating, providing privacy.
- a user should be named when rating, providing accountability.
- thumbs are more lighthearted and therefore better than stars.
- stars give more feedback and are therefore better than thumbs.
- we have to stop the idiots.
- the idiots are unstoppable.

Can I just agree with everyone? Well, no, I won't leave that up to you. I don't need 12 different answers. So, I do, I agree with it all. The cool thing, though, is that somehow it made me decide that although I agree with Privacy, I agree with Accountability a little bit more. I know that the vote has been canceled due to technical difficulties, but, in case there's to be a vote about whether or not a solution should be pursued so that we can vote on it again later, I'll say "Accountability" now and have done with it.

#26 kkffoo


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Posted 15 May 2009 - 08:57 AM

I think you are right AB, the question asked was do we want to be visible when rating.
As it turns out, we don't have the choice.
We are not being offered a choice about whether the five star system remains or stays.
My impression is we are stuck with the forum as it is, therefore giving any more direct and specific feedback about potential tweaks and changes just doesn't seem useful.

#27 AngriBuddhist


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Posted 15 May 2009 - 09:55 AM


I think that I somehow overlooked the strategic placement of emoticons in my last message. unsure.gif

It won't happen again. wink.gif

#28 Guest_yolise_*

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 10:26 AM

I'm a little confused about what we're discussing here? The forums or the community site?

All things can be modified with work and time. In fact, it's a little easier to modify the new stuff than it was to make changes to the old site.

You have a choice about ratings - on each video you can change whether to allow them or not. As we go along, we will make changes as changes are warranted. But I think we should wait and see and find out what everyone wants. So far, I don't see a consensus.

There are two of us - Ben and myself. We are minor miracle workers, but we do have our limitations. We can't do everything today but will try and work just as fast as we can. smile.gif

#29 lucindamc123


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Posted 15 May 2009 - 02:29 PM

QUOTE (Overman @ May 13 2009, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, as I said, it's already an option here. EDIT your film, you'll see the radio buttons to turn off accepting ratings.

Thanks Overman, I didn't look enough at my movie channel yet to find that. Oh, I don't read comments people make on other people's movies and I also ignore the ratings completely. I will tend more to watch a movie that has not had a lot of views than one that has. That is where you find some real gems from unknown film makers. I am always looking for originality.

#30 lucindamc123


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Posted 15 May 2009 - 02:40 PM

Does the "ignore" button keep someone from posting comments on your movies and sending you mail? Oh expect to get hit this weekend. We have a well known troll who just registered. Anyone who wants to know the name, just pm me.

#31 Overman


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Posted 15 May 2009 - 05:12 PM

Okay, I'm near spent on this topic, having been through these discussions elsewhere several times before. So this will be the last post I intend to make in this thread unless someone asks me a question about something I've said.

More data = good. That's the core of my thoughts on this whole subject. More variations on feedback method = more data = good. Not just for the content creators, but for visitors of the site who are looking for something to watch.

For creators, having more info about what people think of your work is good. I believe that providing the audience a variety of ways to express what they think is the best way to gather the most information. Suppress avenues, you suppress the feedback that travels on those avenues. This site has a good balance of "easy" feedback methods and more advanced ones. The easiest method is showing up to VIEW the video, though that's not technically feedback data but more of a reflection of how successful the creator or the hosting site has been at making their video known. Easy methods = one or two mouse clicks, perfectly suited to the viewer always on the move. A single-click rating system. A way to add a video to one's favorites in a click or two. Plus or Minus ratings on comments themselves, this simple innovation has proven a very effective way of giving power to the viewers to police themselves when comment idiocy arises. Easy all around.

Right on the borderline between easy and advanced would be written comments... because those can kind of be used in either way, a simple "Awesome!" or a more complex critique / review. Advanced methods would be options to add videos to playlists or groups, ability to embed offsite (the act of embedding itself being a form of feedback), etc. For creators, this means one has more info about what people think of your work. One can always ignore a specific type of feedback, or turn off some of the types for their film... it's easy to move from a position of more data to a chosen one of less data. It is impossible to move in the other direction, to create feedback data ex nihilo when you've cut off the collection of it.

Vimeo gathers less data from its viewers, having chosen to allow users less ways of expressing their feedback. After all, their "Like" is really just a "Add to Favorites" with a different label. All their other forms of feedback are analogous to those on other sites, they simply chose to turn off a rating system with degrees. And if we accept that more data = good, well...

Moviestorm had a "Like" button on the old site, it was a Thumb. The new site has a "Like" / "Thumb" - it's now called Add to Favorites. The five-star rating system is an addition to - not a replacement of - the thumb. More data = good.

Now, there comes a point where the data in question bumps up against privacy vs. accountability issues. For example, on YouTube, one can turn on a feature where others can see in real time what you are watching. Here at MS, that kind of feature is turned on with regard to ratings. That was the reason for starting this thread. The new site was obviously designed with a more data = good philosophy, but where more data ceases to be good is when the data in question is something the viewer doesn't want to share about themselves. Offsite examples of this would be Facebook using your personal profile data to sculpt which ads show up for you, or Amazon.com using your shopping / browsing habits to formulate recommendations for you. Here, it's having your name associated with ratings that you give, just like comments.

Me personally, I don't mind people knowing what ratings I give. In fact, if that data were harnessed properly, it could eventually evolve into a Contact-Referral system that even exceeds Vimeo's functionality in that regard. Wouldn't it be nice if the site could aggregate into a meaningful form not just what your Friends liked, but with degrees to convey the level of enthusiasm with which they liked it?

But maybe some people prefer the idea of rating in private, a secret ballot of sorts. It's less data, but if the collection of that additional data feels invasive to people, then more data ceases to be good.

So that's really what we need to voice an opinion on here, that's what's on the table for possible change. Ratings themselves, they can be examined or ignored, they can be turned on or turned off, they are an addition of function not a replacement of one. It's whether or not ratings should have nametags, that's what needs determining. The site can absolutely be modified to accommodate a consensus. It's not a quick and easy mod, but it's doable, Yolisa has made that clear. But there is no impetus to action on such a time-consuming task when there's no clarity from us on what we think on this issue.

I entered into this discussion wholly on the side of privacy (even though I've never minded my own ratings being known); but some folks have made a good case for accountability, and I'm finding that I've been persuaded in favor of keeping the functionality. The data of who rates what is going to be present anyway, whether or not it's made available for us to see is the question. I'm going to go ahead and say, I think yes, we should see it, I think it's valuable to creator and fellow viewer alike. How about you?
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You can connect with us On Twitter, On Facebook, On YouTube, and On Vimeo.

#32 mcornetto


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Posted 03 October 2010 - 11:16 PM

I much prefer a like/dislike scoring. Stars means nothing to me because it implies you are comparing my video against something else.

For it to mean anything to me means I have to know you fairly well and be clued into your tastes. Otherwise it's just a source of additonal aggro and no help at all.

#33 dar1921


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Posted 05 October 2010 - 05:06 PM

in my own humble opinion i dont understand why people have any problem with the ratings system. i think its good that u get to see what people thought of ur movie and who it was that rated it. if its just like or dislike that means nothing bcos hardly anyone presses dislike on movies.

some people might like to delude themselves that everyone loves everything they do but personally id rather have honest feedback so i could improve. just my opinion =)

#34 lucindamc123


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:22 PM

QUOTE (zeun4749 @ Mar 26 2012, 07:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Like somebody said, with this system you can actually set out to give somebody a negative review by giving them one star.


Links removed by moderator]

Well that is true but it doesn't happen real often. Most of the people who used to do that are no longer around.

#35 primaveranz


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:30 PM

QUOTE (lucindamc123 @ Mar 27 2012, 05:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well that is true but it doesn't happen real often. Most of the people who used to do that are no longer around.

Talking to the spammers again Lucinda? wink.gif

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#36 lucindamc123


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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:38 PM

Darn, I didn't realize he was a spammer until I clicked the link in his message. LOL

#37 aroundworld


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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:07 PM

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