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Why no Uncompressed AVI option?


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#1 Stormscape

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 02:48 AM

In the publisher's view, under the System codec tab, the familiar list of codecs is there, all except Uncompressed.

Why? The feature is pretty much useless without that option. All other default system codecs render videos with abominable quality.

Why the heck isn't the Uncompressed option present?

I've been using moviestorm for many months now, and I really want to start using it, and it is immeasurably frustrating not to be able to get anything out of moviestorm.

#2 steelblade

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 04:51 PM

QUOTE (Stormscape @ Jul 21 2009, 02:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In the publisher's view, under the System codec tab, the familiar list of codecs is there, all except Uncompressed.

Why? The feature is pretty much useless without that option. All other default system codecs render videos with abominable quality.

Why the heck isn't the Uncompressed option present?

I've been using moviestorm for many months now, and I really want to start using it, and it is immeasurably frustrating not to be able to get anything out of moviestorm.


Because for uncompressed the rendered file is blessed HUGE! Circus Machinima at 11 minutes came to 80 Gigs, uncompressed. That's about 7.25 gigs a minute (your mileage may vary). My 500 Gig HD gagged on the file till I made it into an MP4 to keep the size down.

#3 BA

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 09:23 PM

I render to huffy before importing the clips into Vegas, its not completely uncompressed but it is great for a master, the file sizes are very large coming in at about 1 gig for 30 seconds.

If your system codecs are rendering at a terrible quality that sounds like a different problem, have you installed K-Lite codec pack ?
Matt and Dave Review our last film "Faith Hope and Charity". http://blackaceprodu...ious/Review.wma

#4 Stormscape

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 01:17 AM

I know uncompressed files are huge, but that's no reason not to give those of us with the disk space, the option.

QUOTE (BA @ Jul 21 2009, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I render to huffy before importing the clips into Vegas, its not completely uncompressed but it is great for a master, the file sizes are very large coming in at about 1 gig for 30 seconds.
See this thread.

QUOTE
If your system codecs are rendering at a terrible quality that sounds like a different problem

All the default system codecs have horrible quality, except for uncompressed.

QUOTE
have you installed K-Lite codec pack ?

I'd love to, but nobody will tell me where to find it, or even what it is.

#5 Overman

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 03:57 PM

QUOTE (Stormscape @ Jul 22 2009, 01:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd love to, but nobody will tell me where to find it, or even what it is.


http://www.google.co...lite codec pack

It's a big pack of non-default system codecs.

QUOTE (Stormscape @ Jul 22 2009, 01:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know uncompressed files are huge, but that's no reason not to give those of us with the disk space, the option.


I agree 100%. I would use uncompressed as my export most if not all of the time if it were available.

QUOTE (BA @ Jul 21 2009, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I render to huffy before importing the clips into Vegas, its not completely uncompressed but it is great for a master, the file sizes are very large coming in at about 1 gig for 30 seconds.


Anything in particular you do with audio when doing these renders? When I render to HuffYUV the vid quality is great but the sound is off / out of sync; it's like the audio track comes out to a different length than the video.

Also, in certain situations, my HuffYUV output from moviestorm will stutter (the video part). I don't mean when trying to play it back in media player, I know the files are sometimes too rich to be played back in real time, but I'm talking about the actual video file, you open it an analyze it with Virtual Dub / Vegas, and the stutter is in the source file itself, particularly noticeable on panning camera moves. The same movie rendered to the default output type in MS has no stutter. It's strange, wondering if you'd seen that too.
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#6 Stormscape

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 09:52 AM

QUOTE (Overman @ Jul 22 2009, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's a big pack of non-default system codecs.


Yes but will it provide me with a viable render option?

I'm looking at the website and it looks a little more complicated and hazardous to my computer's health than I'd like. (Meaning, it looks way to easy to do something wrong during installation.)

#7 Overman

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 02:43 PM

QUOTE (Stormscape @ Jul 23 2009, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes but will it provide me with a viable render option?

I'm looking at the website and it looks a little more complicated and hazardous to my computer's health than I'd like. (Meaning, it looks way to easy to do something wrong during installation.)


I'm not sure how video codecs are a threat to your system health, but I suppose anything is possible. If you're worried about messing something up during advanced install, then don't use advanced install, or back up your system before running the installer.

If the only codecs you have on your computer right now are "defaults" like Cinepak, Indeo, etc. then YES having codecs birthed in the last decade are going to greatly improve your render options, from Moviestorm or any other program that renders video. Keeping in mind that not all codecs work with Moviestorm yet, some experimentation is required. If the thought of doing that feels hazardous to you, then don't. Just continue using Moviestorm's default MPEG-in-AVI codec until they release an officially supported uncompressed option (if ever).
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#8 Robear

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 11:13 PM

I agree with Stormscape. It would be very beneficial to at least have the Uncompressed AVI option available for those who want to take advantage of it. It is, after all, one of the industry standards for high quality video rendering.

That said, if you are getting poor quality renders out of MS then you probably do have a codec problem. Uninstall ALL of your video codecs then reinstall one of the packs mentioned above.

#9 Stormscape

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 04:41 AM

QUOTE (Overman @ Jul 23 2009, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not sure how video codecs are a threat to your system health, but I suppose anything is possible. If you're worried about messing something up during advanced install, then don't use advanced install, or back up your system before running the installer.

I'm not sure how they're a threat either, if I were, I could easily avoid it. I'm fairly certain however that NOT using the custom install will result in problems.

Especially since I DO have more than the default codecs installed. (Specifically, Xvid and huffyuv, however, both of those do not function and cannot be removed in Add/Remove Programs; I get an error about a file not found.)
Specifically, I'm worried that
a ) the codec pack will attempt to install a codec that is already installed and not working and the duplicate will cause severe conflicts.
b ) the codecs will all install "properly" but then not function, in the same way that the Xvid and huffyuv codecs I installed do not function, because I tested those installers on other computers and they work fine, which leads me to believe there is a problem with my computer that makes it impossible to install new codecs.
c ) I don't have the capability to back up my system, or do Restores, so I have to get this right on the first try.

QUOTE
Just continue using Moviestorm's default MPEG-in-AVI codec

Well, obviously that was the first thing I tried, but nothing on my computer (except the VLC player) can read the file that comes out of that.

QUOTE (Robear)
if you are getting poor quality renders out of MS then you probably do have a codec problem. Uninstall ALL of your video codecs then reinstall one of the packs mentioned above.

I'm only getting poor quality because the " "defaults" like Cinepak, Indeo, etc." aren't capable of high quality. I actually had a moment of hope using MJPEG, but then I discovered how badly that format reacts to chromakey.
QUOTE
Uninstall ALL of your video codecs then reinstall one of the packs mentioned above.

I tried to do that but the only two codecs I have installed, WON'T uninstall, so I'm guessing that if I do install K-Lite I have to omit those two. And then there's a chance that everything K-Lite installs will not function, same as the first two, and then I'll be stuck with dozens of broken, un-uninstallable codecs.

I think the bigger question is why I can't uninstall the broken ones? And why are they broken in the first place?

#10 Overman

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 07:58 AM

I didn't use the custom install, had quite a few codecs already installed, and had no issue. Then again, I didn't have the issues beforehand that you're experiencing, so I can understand your caution.

Manual uninstall of Xvid and HuffYUV should be as simple as tracking down the appropriate files (most likely in C:\Windows\System ):

HuffYUV is huffyuv.dll
XVid is xvid.ax (or xvid.dll if you've got a very old version)

Find those files, move them somewhere (I recommend relocation over deletion until you're all done, for ease of rollback). If you can't delete the files, do you have Administrator privileges on your PC? You'll need those to move these files - and you'll also need them to successfully install codecs on most modern Windows versions.

If you still can't delete the files, try starting Windows in safe mode (with administrator privileges), and you should be able to get to them then.

Once they've been moved, restart the PC. Check to see, those should no longer show up as choices in whatever vid program where you used to see them.

I don't believe any registry repair will be required for codecs specifically. Once the DLLs are gone, Windows doesn't try to use them anymore.

Once you've gotten the old ones removed, you *should* be able to install the K-Lite pack - but your user account MUST have administrator permissions or you're going to have trouble.

I'll go ahead and tell you what you already know, that (1) I am not liable if anything should go wrong here, and (2) operating your PC with production as an intention with no backup capability is a ticking time bomb, yada yada yada... deleting system files / performing "repairs" without any way to restore a backup / roll back is... well, what's worse than a ticking time bomb? A ticking time bomb strapped to a puppy and filled with swine flu and excrement? Massive portable USB hard drives can be bought for under $100, that and the diligence to make the backups are all that is required (Windows has a fine backup utility built in, has for years). I cannot in good conscience recommend that you do ANY of the above steps with no rollback capability. It's Russian Roulette. But with puppies instead of bullets, or something.

That said, I wish you the best of luck and we'll continue to try to help you here.
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#11 Stormscape

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 05:55 PM

QUOTE (Overman @ Jul 24 2009, 07:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
do you have Administrator privileges on your PC?

Of course.

QUOTE
Check to see, those should no longer show up as choices in whatever vid program where you used to see them.

The only place they show up is in Device Manager (and by extension, Add/Remove Programs)

QUOTE
Once you've gotten the old ones removed, you *should* be able to install the K-Lite pack - but your user account MUST have administrator permissions or you're going to have trouble.
Only one account on this computer; not a problem there. You said that when you installed, the K-Lite installer, what, automatically detected what codecs are already installed, and avoided creating any conflicts?

QUOTE
operating your PC with production as an intention with no backup capability is a ticking time bomb, yada yada yada... deleting system files / performing "repairs" without any way to restore a backup / roll back is... well, what's worse than a ticking time bomb?
I am aware.

QUOTE
Massive portable USB hard drives can be bought for under $100, that and the diligence to make the backups are all that is required (Windows has a fine backup utility built in, has for years).
I have several external USB hard drives, but each is dedicated to a specific purpose. (One for source video files, one for project data and related files, one to back up important files to manually, etc.) In addition, it seems to me that trusting windows to back up or restore/rollback my system without degradation or corruption, is more hazardous than having those features disabled entirely.

EDIT - One more big question, what will allow Vegas and other system applications to read files rendered in Moviestorms MPEG-in-AVI format? Maybe, just maybe, that is all I need, assuming Vegas can RE-render in that format. Is that a component of the K-Lite pack?

#12 Overman

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 06:52 PM

QUOTE (Stormscape @ Jul 24 2009, 05:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You said that when you installed, the K-Lite installer, what, automatically detected what codecs are already installed, and avoided creating any conflicts?


That was precisely my experience with it, yes.

QUOTE (Stormscape @ Jul 24 2009, 05:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
EDIT - One more big question, what will allow Vegas and other system applications to read files rendered in Moviestorms MPEG-in-AVI format? Maybe, just maybe, that is all I need, assuming Vegas can RE-render in that format. Is that a component of the K-Lite pack?


I can't remember if that one is specifically in there, but I *think* it is. There's a very nifty free utility called GSpot (http://www.headbands.com/gspot/) that can open a video file and tell you exactly what codecs are required to play it back (and whether your system has them installed). Highly recommended addition to your toolkit, will be handy for this specific question and will likely come in useful down the road as well.
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#13 BA

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 12:08 AM

One thing you must remember. Vegas will not import clips rendered in DIVX AVI format. That is because Sony and DivX fell out over licensing.

Stripped AVI and XVID AVI will import however.

The stupid Apple AVI H264 codec that Moviestorm uses for their logo also will not import unless you are very lucky and manage to find a legacy apple decoder that is not tied up with FFDshow (the decoder there is not H264 but X264 which will not decode the Moviestorm logo).

As I said before I find the best thing to do is render in Huffy which is a lossless codec, rendering in anything else will degrade your final film as some quality will be lost due to the codec you use.

QUOTE
a ) the codec pack will attempt to install a codec that is already installed and not working and the duplicate will cause severe conflicts.
b ) the codecs will all install "properly" but then not function, in the same way that the Xvid and huffyuv codecs I installed do not function, because I tested those installers on other computers and they work fine, which leads me to believe there is a problem with my computer that makes it impossible to install new codecs.
c ) I don't have the capability to back up my system, or do Restores, so I have to get this right on the first try.


Some comments.

1. Codec PACKS can be uninstalled unlike individual codecs. Both Cole Codek pack and Klite can be uninstalled from the remove programs option.

2. If the existing codec does not function why are you worried it may not work if you install the pack, you have lost nothing and if it works your happy.

3. If codecs are not working after you install them, it may be your computer, if your computer is old or has been overloaded with small junk programs, your windows registry is probably falling to pieces, don't listen to people who tell you it can be repaired, reinstall windows (this is a big step and recently it cost me £150 when my reinstall did not quite go to plan so be very brave if your going to do it).

QUOTE
OVERMAN: Anything in particular you do with audio when doing these renders? When I render to HuffYUV the vid quality is great but the sound is off / out of sync;


Maybe that's because you always set Vegas or whatever non linear editor you use to use NTSC frame rates. I have no problem with PAL frame rates using Huffy, the audio is perfect, and nothing stutters.

NTSC really is a dog rough format that should have died a death years ago, you are well aware of the conflicts between NTSC and Film/PAL frame rate formats.
Matt and Dave Review our last film "Faith Hope and Charity". http://blackaceprodu...ious/Review.wma

#14 Stormscape

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 12:53 AM

QUOTE (BA @ Jul 26 2009, 12:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If codecs are not working after you install them, it may be your computer, if your computer is old or has been overloaded with small junk programs, your windows registry is probably falling to pieces, don't listen to people who tell you it can be repaired, reinstall windows (this is a big step and recently it cost me £150 when my reinstall did not quite go to plan so be very brave if your going to do it).

My computer is brand new, and I did the formatting and OS install myself.



QUOTE
NTSC really is a dog rough format that should have died a death years ago.


This is off-topic but I agree implicitly. NTSC should be avoided like the plague, and when you're working with machinima there's no reason you need to go anywhere near it.

#15 BA

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 01:51 AM

Mark.

You joined this forum about the same time as me, 2007.

You have yet to upload any movie made with this application, yet you feel justified in complaining about the limitations of not only Moviestorm, but your PC and codecs which are nothing to do with Moviestorm, also you are coming across as quite sharp when all we are trying to do is help you.

Trust me, we will do all we can to help you if you have a problem with the application.

Can I ask what you are actually trying to do with Moviestorm ?
Matt and Dave Review our last film "Faith Hope and Charity". http://blackaceprodu...ious/Review.wma

#16 Stormscape

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 05:30 AM

QUOTE (BA @ Jul 26 2009, 01:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You have yet to upload any movie made with this application

Because in the entire time I've been working with moviestorm, I've never been able to get a usable render.

QUOTE
you are coming across as quite sharp when all we are trying to do is help you.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

QUOTE
Can I ask what you are actually trying to do with Moviestorm?

I'm putting together an ongoing large-scale series. Website.


#17 Overman

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 06:02 AM

QUOTE (BA @ Jul 26 2009, 12:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe that's because you always set Vegas or whatever non linear editor you use to use NTSC frame rates. I have no problem with PAL frame rates using Huffy, the audio is perfect, and nothing stutters.


One would think if that were the case, Vegas would do that will all the other NTSC video sources I bring in, including HuffYUV created with VirtualDub as NTSC. But this particular issue has only cropped up with the 30fps HuffYUV exported direct from Moviestorm. Sure, sometimes when I bring in camcorder footage recorded at NTSC, the audio can gradually fall out of sync over time (and that is definitely due to the NTSC issue)... but with this HuffYUV-from-Moviestorm issue, it's way out of sync from the very beginning of the video by several seconds. A real puzzler, I've never seen the like before.

That said, I'll run a test HuffYUV export using PAL and see what happens, thanks for the tip! I'm also going to try HuffYUV out at lower resolution - something that might possibly be able to play back in VLC smoothly, and see if indeed the original file is where the problem is, or if it's something that only happens when Vegas touches it. If I discover anything of interest there, I'll start up a new thread if appropriate. Thanks for the ideas and info, BA!

I'll also go ahead and affirm, for the record, that I've been detecting the sharpness of tone from Stormscape as well. I've been assuming it's due to frustration with feeling like things should work but don't. Probably years of tech support work has thickened my skin to it a bit, I guess. But Storm, if it isn't clear, we do want to help you fix your problem, I hope that's coming through even when our suggestions aren't the ones you are looking for.
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#18 Stormscape

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 08:15 AM

QUOTE (Overman @ Jul 26 2009, 06:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But Storm, if it isn't clear, we do want to help you fix your problem, I hope that's coming through even when our suggestions aren't the ones you are looking for.

It is. I honestly don't see the harshness of tone in my words. I apologize, anyway.

#19 BA

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 12:12 AM

QUOTE
but with this HuffYUV-from-Moviestorm issue, it's way out of sync from the very beginning of the video by several seconds. A real puzzler, I've never seen the like before.


Oh I have seen it before, try taking an NTSC dvd and rip/burn it to PAL, the audio is out by seconds right from the start and stays out all the way through. Maybe there is something on your system telling the Huffy codec to render to NTSC ?

Normal rates are 24 or 25 FPS, I would simply not render anything to NTSC and make sure all my project default settings are set to either 24 or 25 FPS PAL format.

But then I live in Europe smile.gif

Stormscape: Try installing Huffy and then see what the results are like.

http://www.afterdawn...ers/huffyuv.cfm

Obviously you need to select the "system Codecs" tab. Render to 25 FPS. See what its like. If it still looks terrible then I would suspect the video card drivers or your hardware.

Let me know how you get on.
Matt and Dave Review our last film "Faith Hope and Charity". http://blackaceprodu...ious/Review.wma

#20 Stormscape

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 02:50 AM

QUOTE (BA @ Jul 27 2009, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Stormscape: Try installing Huffy and then see what the results are like.

Obviously you need to select the "system Codecs" tab. Render to 25 FPS. See what its like. If it still looks terrible then I would suspect the video card drivers or your hardware.

Let me know how you get on.

Okay, I want to flame you for this, just thought you ought to know.



Anyway, if you're having problems with NTSC you're likely to have similar problems with PAL because they share the fractional framerate issue. (NTSC being 29.6- or something and Pal being 24.9- I think, doesn't matter, the point is the framerate is not a whole number.)
If that's the problem, making sure your framerate is 25.0, 30.0, or 60.0 at every stage of the process ( 1.Source/moviestorm-render. 2.Project settings in your editor. 3.Render settings in your editor) should stave it off.


Back on topic, I started to install K-Lite and its uninstaller was able to remove the codecs already on my system so (I think) that problem has been bypassed for now. I have to reboot before running the installer again and actually installing K-Lite, and I haven't gotten around to that yet; I'll let you guys know if it works when I do.


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