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Why no Uncompressed AVI option?


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#21 Overman

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 12:50 PM

QUOTE (Stormscape @ Jul 27 2009, 02:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Back on topic, I started to install K-Lite and its uninstaller was able to remove the codecs already on my system so (I think) that problem has been bypassed for now. I have to reboot before running the installer again and actually installing K-Lite, and I haven't gotten around to that yet; I'll let you guys know if it works when I do.


Ah, good news! Yes, do keep us posted.
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#22 Stormscape

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 06:37 PM

QUOTE (Overman @ Jul 27 2009, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ah, good news! Yes, do keep us posted.


Oh Kay.

K-Lite appeared to install without problems (although it seemed to detect an awful lot of "Broken" Sony audio codecs that I'm not entirely sure were actually broken).

Additional options now show up in moviestorm and Vegas and elsewhere. It appears that Vegas can now read the default MS format, athough it can't seem to detect that the video has an audio track (the opposite of before, when it read the audio track but saw the video track as blank).

I've only had a chance to test out the K-Lite installed Huffyuv so far, but it doesn't seem to work perfectly. At first glance, it works, but in the video there are skips and missing frames (in the file itself, I stepped through it one frame at a time to be sure. in some places the action skips ahead several frames, and in other places single frames are blank). I now have the Full version of the K-Lite pack, so what other codecs would you recommend trying? Or any idea what's causing this render problem?

#23 Overman

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:19 PM

QUOTE (Stormscape @ Jul 29 2009, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh Kay.

K-Lite appeared to install without problems (although it seemed to detect an awful lot of "Broken" Sony audio codecs that I'm not entirely sure were actually broken).

Additional options now show up in moviestorm and Vegas and elsewhere. It appears that Vegas can now read the default MS format, athough it can't seem to detect that the video has an audio track (the opposite of before, when it read the audio track but saw the video track as blank).

I've only had a chance to test out the K-Lite installed Huffyuv so far, but it doesn't seem to work perfectly. At first glance, it works, but in the video there are skips and missing frames (in the file itself, I stepped through it one frame at a time to be sure. in some places the action skips ahead several frames, and in other places single frames are blank). I now have the Full version of the K-Lite pack, so what other codecs would you recommend trying? Or any idea what's causing this render problem?


Sounds like you are now precisely in my shoes. I've got the same problem getting Vegas to read the audio track of the default MS format (I think we pretty much all have that problem; there are workarounds... you can open the vid file in Goldwave (www.goldwave.com) and save as WAV.)

And I have precisely the same problem with HuffYUV coming out of MS... though I'm not sure that it's the K-Lite HuffYUV that's causing that. I used VirtualDub on that same PC to render some HuffYUV from another source last night, and it doesn't have any of the lag+skips. But I get those like crazy when I render straight from Moviestorm to HuffYUV. So it might be something particular to the way MS talks to HuffYUV at present.

Best quality render method I've found I just detailed today in this thread, it might be of interest to you:
http://www.moviestor...p...ost&p=43931

It's a whole order of magnitude better than anything else I've tried; near perfect, actually. In fact, if you wanted to get an Uncompressed vid from MS, you might try just substituting Uncompressed for HuffYUV in those steps I lay out. (I've done so with success, just decided to go with HuffYUV because at 1080i the file size was more than I'm prepared to handle regularly.)
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#24 daleh

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:26 PM

yes same for me, Vegas will only read the Video not the audiio of default MS.

I use AOA audio extractor to get the audio out of the MS video, then import the audio tracks seperately and then group them back with their video.

However, doing this i noticed that 'Reversing' the video in Vegas will not work, you just get blank video, but if you 'un-reverse' it it then works again.

Well for me for any bit i need to reverse, like toi get the effect of a MS car reversing, I just render that small part as Huffy or something else

But for me the Huffy render file size is just too big to use for the main video stuff.

#25 Stormscape

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 04:21 PM

I'm going to be working with large numbers of renders, and I think it would only be feasible with a one-step render, rather than having to go through a whole rigmarole each time. I don't need perfect quality, and I'd rather sacrifice a little quality in the render than have to go through several steps each time.

So, are any of the other new codecs from k-Like, viable options?

(and what's the difference between using the ffdshow encoder and the ffdshow codec; they appear separately in the list)

#26 D.L. Watson

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 06:12 PM

I've briefly glanced through this and while I completely agree an uncompressed AVI export would be nice, I also think that until that happens, using the Window Media Video export tab to HIGH work really nice.

It does well with Chroma keying and the file size isn't huge.

The audio acts weird in Vegas, but Vegas certainly reads it.

The only other option for AVI uncompressed export would be getting Fraps. But that would be pointless for the amount of cropping you'd have to get rid of all the software buttons and stuff around your footage.

#27 Stormscape

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 11:56 AM

QUOTE (Stormscape @ Jul 30 2009, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, are any of the other new codecs from k-Like, viable options?


Failing you guys having first hand experience, is there some kind of guide that has info about each of the codecs K-Lite installed? I'd really rather not have to resort to trial and error, here.

#28 Overman

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:49 PM

QUOTE (Stormscape @ Jul 31 2009, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Failing you guys having first hand experience, is there some kind of guide that has info about each of the codecs K-Lite installed? I'd really rather not have to resort to trial and error, here.


Unfortunately, it's less to do with how the codecs work on their own and more to do with discovering which ones Moviestorm plays nicely with. Short Fuze have pretty much made it clear that if we want to venture into that territory right now trial and error is precisely how we need to proceed. So if you choose to start experimenting with some, let's start a new thread documenting those discoveries and encouraging others to do the same there. I know I'll contribute as well. That info will work its way into the wiki, no doubt, and benefit everyone seeking to do this kind of thing.

If the idea of spending time doing this is unappealing, I really do suggest you give the method I layed out a try. It may sound like a "whole rigmarole" but it's actually not that big of a deal in practice. I wrote out the instructions in a verbose manner so I wouldn't have to type them again to clarify anything, but the actual steps are not terribly time-consuming. I do a lot of renders, and I mean a lot, every week and have for the past year. I wouldn't adopt or endorse a procedure that had a prohibitive amount of hoop jumping. Dismissing it out of hand might be overlooking a very solid option.

QUOTE (D.L. Watson @ Jul 30 2009, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The only other option for AVI uncompressed export would be getting Fraps.

Does Fraps do uncompressed at all? I thought that even at high quality it used its own codec. Still, yeah, you'd get framerate loss out the wazoo, and the cropping would make it madness like you said.
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#29 Stormscape

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 03:10 PM

QUOTE (Overman @ Jul 31 2009, 12:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Does Fraps do uncompressed at all? I thought that even at high quality it used its own codec. Still, yeah, you'd get framerate loss out the wazoo, and the cropping would make it madness like you said.

Fraps uses its own codec (which vegas reads beautifully BTW). It would be the perfect codec for everything except no program can actually render using it. If I had to guess I would say this is because only the decoder is installed in the system and the encoder only exists within the fraps .exe file itself.

The quality of the fraps codec is awesome though.

#30 BA

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 07:09 PM

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I honestly don't see the harshness of tone in my words.



QUOTE
Okay, I want to flame you for this, just thought you ought to know.




If your reply to people who are only trying to help you is to flame them, then I for one will not try to offer any assistance in future.

And for your information your comments on PAL fractional framerate is incorrect.

NTSC = 23.976 FPS.
PAL = 25.000 FPS.

I am glad you seem to be getting somewhere however, I look forward to your first film.

Matt and Dave Review our last film "Faith Hope and Charity". http://blackaceprodu...ious/Review.wma

#31 Stormscape

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:03 PM

QUOTE (BA @ Jul 31 2009, 07:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And for your information your comments on PAL fractional framerate is incorrect.

NTSC = 23.976 FPS.
PAL = 25.000 FPS.


Actually, we're both wrong.

PAL is indeed a flat 25.0

NTSC however, is 29.970

23.976 is film, or rather, the framerate that immitates that of film.



#32 Stormscape

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:21 PM

Okay, here's a twist.

I was just dinking around in Vegas' render options, and while .avi and a few other formats now have a massive list of codec options, .wmv has none. That's right none. Not even the standard windows ones. Somehow, installing K-Lite completely stripped my system of its ability to deal with .wmv files. What the crap?

In another bizarre twist, codecs now appear as options (for instance, CineFormHD v2.8) that weren't there immediately after installing K-Lite. Is this just a result of some arcane method of Windows where for some reason not all the installed codecs showed up right away, or what?

#33 Overman

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 03:05 AM

QUOTE (Stormscape @ Jul 31 2009, 08:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was just dinking around in Vegas' render options, and while .avi and a few other formats now have a massive list of codec options, .wmv has none. That's right none. Not even the standard windows ones. Somehow, installing K-Lite completely stripped my system of its ability to deal with .wmv files. What the crap?


K-Lite neither removes nor installs Windows Media codecs, they're a separate download entirely. The K-Lite guys provide a courtesy link here:

http://www.codecguid...edia_codecs.htm

Or you can get them directly from Microsoft.
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#34 Stormscape

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 03:42 PM

QUOTE (Overman @ Aug 1 2009, 03:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
K-Lite neither removes nor installs Windows Media codecs, they're a separate download entirely. The K-Lite guys provide a courtesy link here:


Be that as it may, they were there before I installed K-Lite, and they weren't there after.

#35 Stormscape

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 01:49 AM

QUOTE (Overman @ Jul 29 2009, 07:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Best quality render method I've found I just detailed today in this thread, it might be of interest to you:
http://www.moviestor...p...ost&p=43931


I had a thought.

Sony Vegas can read image sequences as video files, meaning I can go straight from moviestorm to Vegas, like I wanted, however, then there's the problem of load speed. Even if Vegas treats it like a video file, it still has to pull the frames off the harddrive one at a time. This can't be any slower than Uncompressed AVI unless I misunderstand how Uncompressed works, but it's probably significantly slower than a huffyuv video.

The real question is if this trade-off in speed is made up for by the infallible video frames. I don't really care about audio. I was going to use the rendered track for syncing purposes, but that's not a necessity.

Has this been tried?

#36 BA

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 11:06 PM

Vegas reads TARGA image sequence files. Not the PNG or JPG formats that moviestorm exports.

You can do it if you want to frame every single image, but it will take hours of work for even a few seconds of film and the final result will look no different than a huffy render.

QUOTE
infallible video frames


What do you mean by this ?

All video is encoded in some format, nothing is just raw data, a lossless codec is almost EXACTLY the same as uncompressed. LOSSLESS means it codes the video with almost no loss, meaning it is the same as uncompressed. No video software will give you a pure raw data export without some encoding.

Even if Moviestorm used an uncompressed format they would use a codec like Huffy to produce the final file.

I suppose the answer to your original question "why no uncompressed AVI option" is....

There is...

it is a system codec that is lossless, the most common codec of that type being Huffy, but there are many others that do the same but are not so popular.
Matt and Dave Review our last film "Faith Hope and Charity". http://blackaceprodu...ious/Review.wma

#37 BA

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 11:41 PM

Woops. Still testing.

OK, testing done. Can confirm FRAPS does not render at all. Next time I meet the guy who wrote FRAPS I will suggest he makes it a priority. Last time we met we just got drunk.
Matt and Dave Review our last film "Faith Hope and Charity". http://blackaceprodu...ious/Review.wma

#38 Stormscape

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 12:58 AM

QUOTE (BA @ Aug 12 2009, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Vegas reads TARGA image sequence files. Not the PNG or JPG formats that moviestorm exports.

Actually, Vegas reads just about any image format.



QUOTE
What do you mean by this ?

Each frame is a separate file. Therefore its impossible for a frame to go missing, as happens with huffyuv all the time. Vegas has direct acess to the frames, rather than having to go through a decoder to get each frame.

QUOTE
I suppose the answer to your original question "why no uncompressed AVI option" is....

There is...

Yes, there is. Vegas can render to it. Particle Illusion can render to it. ETC. The problem is that Moviestorm doesn't render to this format.

QUOTE
it is a system codec that is lossless
Its not a codec at all. Its not lossless, its UNCOMPRESSED frames in an .avi wrapper.

Which brings me back to my current question.

Which can be read off the harddrive faster? Those uncompressed frames in one file, or thousands of separate compressed image files. I don't know enough about the underlying architecture of how windows acesses files from the harddrive, to guess.

#39 Overman

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 02:20 AM

A few things:

1) Uncompressed consists of individual bitmaps for each frame of video, with no optimization. HuffYUV is (rightly) considered a lossless codec; but it's not what we'd be looking for in an "uncompressed" render. Uncompressed is the ONLY render which requires no codec per se, so theoretically should be one of the easiest exports to set up. But I must plead ignorance on the actual programming realities involved.

2) Even the PNGs exported from Moviestorm are not lossless; PNGs use a compression to optimize themselves. They do it (optimize) very very well, but it's not the same as BMP, and it's most certainly not lossless. Take an uncompressed video, export it from VirtualDub as a series of BMP images, you'll find that each frame is the same file size, regardless of content. PNG filesizes vary with the complexity of their contents. This is further evidenced by the fact that if you create an uncompressed AVI file from a series of PNG files exported from Moviestorm, that uncompressed AVI - which contains the same visual data and a simple header - will be considerably larger than your folder of PNG files, every time.

3) Stormscape, guessing the answer to that question is needless, as is asking others to do so. Run your own experiment to answer your question about whether Vegas will be faster dealing with a folder full of PNGs or an uncompressed AVI file. Run it on 60 seconds of video, and grab yourself a stop watch or a watch with a second hand. Several of us have shared findings from our own experiments and offered up our own suggestions - mine which I came upon after literally years of experimentation. If you've got a mind to forge your own unique method - and if so, good for you! - but at some point you just need to slap on the labcoat and run some tests yourself instead of persisting in the same plea for someone else to answer it for you. (Frankly, it wouldn't be the world's most terrible idea to do the same for some of OUR suggestions as well, rather than dismissing them on theoretical bases, just my two cents).
Phil "Overman" Rice
Zarathustra Studios - http://z-studios.com
You can connect with us On Twitter, On Facebook, On YouTube, and On Vimeo.


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