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Are user created walk cycles possible?
 
corthew
post Feb 28 2012, 10:32 PM
Post #41


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Ok I'm going to try going back to basics on this.

Following your first set of instructions where I managed to get my first attempt to work.

I'm curious though if Mirror would work for this. If I get one working again I think I'll try mirroring it to see if I can avoid a step.

Hmmm...If I can though the command will look strange. Reverse of StrafeRight.



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Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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corthew
post Feb 29 2012, 12:51 AM
Post #42


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Ok, I went back to basics. Created a detailed sideways walk. Arms, head, spine and legs have rotational keyframes.

He finishes a bit ahead in the direction he's facing although I'm thinking the direction of motion is what the software is concerned with, which he of course finishes ahead in.smile.gif

The feet don't drop below the floor. The foot in motion remains above the stationary one until its touching down.

But it doesn't work.

I've replaced the dropbox addon file with this latest one.

Here's the link again:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/51344100/HoC_Walks.addon

I'm really curious what the error is this time because I can't see any based on my understanding of the requirements.smile.gif

I could do this as a posture but there are things I need the upper body doing and postures are selfish bastards. smile.gif


--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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corthew
post Feb 29 2012, 9:58 AM
Post #43


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QUOTE (Ben_S @ Feb 23 2012, 09:37 AM) *
You might try creating a walk cycle where the character starts standing sideways (mid gait) and then moves forwards (which is actually sideways). It might manage to blend from the characters start pose into it. Maybe.


I had missed this comment.

I'd hate to have to try this though since it has already been established that an actual sideways walk is possible.

YES! I just went through my recycle bin and I had deleted the directory structure for a few that worked so I now have something that works even if I can't figure this out for anyone else.

Here is the first one:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/51344100/HoC_Walks...20Success.addon

And here is the second (I'll try editing this one to get rid of the hand motion):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/51344100/HoC_Walks...20Success.addon

And a third one:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/51344100/HoC_Walks...20Success.addon

Unfortunately I never achieved success with the female but I can work around that.

So why did the ones above work and why have I not been able to duplicate it?

'Enquiring' minds are desperate to know. smile.gif

Edit: Some of the animations in these that work have feet dipping below the floor and no rotation of upper body...but they work. blink.gif


--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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Ben_S
post Feb 29 2012, 11:26 AM
Post #44


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The animation in post 42 doesnt appear to be animating the upper body at all, and is the same problem I had first discribed.

In the sucesses - one of them has moving arms, which probably helps.
And there is a possibility that if the lowest frame for the left foot is either the first or last frame, it might avoid the problem with reordering, that was causing issues for you.


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corthew
post Feb 29 2012, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE (Ben_S @ Feb 29 2012, 07:26 AM) *
The animation in post 42 doesnt appear to be animating the upper body at all, and is the same problem I had first discribed.


Its slight but the upper body is indeed animated. I just modified it to exagerate the upper body rotation and still no go I selected all bones from lower spine through relavent arm bones and head bone then twisted it from above:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/51344100/HoC_Walks%20%283%29.addon

QUOTE (Ben_S @ Feb 29 2012, 07:26 AM) *
In the sucesses - one of them has moving arms, which probably helps.
And there is a possibility that if the lowest frame for the left foot is either the first or last frame, it might avoid the problem with reordering, that was causing issues for you.


I'll try that when I get home. I have a bit of extra time to nail this down this weekend. If we are still unsuccessful I'll have to go with what I've got.


--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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corthew
post Feb 29 2012, 12:44 PM
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I couldn't wait but it didn't work. sad.gif

I made sure the lowest points for the left foot were either the first and last frame. Both are lower than any other frame.

Edit: I mean I have now modified the one you had looked at to make those two frames the lowest for the left foot.


--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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Ben_S
post Feb 29 2012, 1:31 PM
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QUOTE (corthew @ Feb 29 2012, 12:44 PM) *
I couldn't wait but it didn't work. sad.gif

I made sure the lowest points for the left foot were either the first and last frame. Both are lower than any other frame.

Edit: I mean I have now modified the one you had looked at to make those two frames the lowest for the left foot.


Which did you try? First frame or last frame? My feeling would be that first frame would be the best bet.


Would it help to have a build where this problem wasnt happening - you would be able to see your walk cycles in action, but wouldnt be able to distribute them?


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Ben_S
post Feb 29 2012, 1:57 PM
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The StrafeLeft animation in post 45 is insufficently animated for the following bone ID's:
1, 8, 15, 36, 37
Which I think means these bones:
Male01 Pelvis
Male01 LipUpperR 01
Male01 LipCornerR 02
Male01 CheekR
Male01 CheekL

I think if these bones were changing position slightly, the eventual anim would work. Probably.

Edit:
It's not the keyframe culling that is causing the problem - your animation exporter is only exporting one keyframe for some of the tracks.
Which animation creation software are you using, and which cal exporter?
Does it have options about how to export keyframes (such as exporting one each frame for every bone)?


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corthew
post Feb 29 2012, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE (Ben_S @ Feb 29 2012, 09:57 AM) *
The StrafeLeft animation in post 45 is insufficently animated for the following bone ID's:
1, 8, 15, 36, 37
Which I think means these bones:
Male01 Pelvis
Male01 LipUpperR 01
Male01 LipCornerR 02
Male01 CheekR
Male01 CheekL

I think if these bones were changing position slightly, the eventual anim would work. Probably.

Edit:
It's not the keyframe culling that is causing the problem - your animation exporter is only exporting one keyframe for some of the tracks.
Which animation creation software are you using, and which cal exporter?
Does it have options about how to export keyframes (such as exporting one each frame for every bone)?


If I understand you correctly, any frame that's keyframed for any bones should have all the bones keyframed?

Its possible that is part of the problem.

I'm going to be breaking the working animations over the next few days to discover just what does break them. I've been trying to get a new animation to work but even with your help its kinda like groping in the dark for a lightswitch with no clue what wall its on or even if its on a wall.smile.gif

I think I'll line them up though in a single set and see what they have in common.

The software I'm using is Misfit. It supports up to version 1200 binary and up to 1000 XML according to the only site I could find that actually had that info.
http://sid.ethz.ch/debian/mm3d/mm3d-1.3.8/.../olh_cal3d.html

It apparently doesn't support all Cal3D options and won't tell you when importing that it couldn't import those portions, but I already know the walk works. so its just a question of discovering why.smile.gif

That cheek bone and lip bone part really confuses me since for the ones that works I never touched the head for animating. I keyframed it as I did all the bones at frames 1, 15, 30, 45 and 60 and may have keyframed it at other points for no particular reason other than that I wanted to be thorough and had rotated or translated something at in-between frames.


--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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corthew
post Mar 1 2012, 12:15 AM
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QUOTE (Ben_S @ Feb 29 2012, 09:31 AM) *
Which did you try? First frame or last frame? My feeling would be that first frame would be the best bet.


Both. I dropped it down a smidge and both ends and raised it up a smidge at the only frame that still dipped it lower.

QUOTE (Ben_S @ Feb 29 2012, 09:31 AM) *
Would it help to have a build where this problem wasnt happening - you would be able to see your walk cycles in action, but wouldnt be able to distribute them?


I'm going to try to break the ones I was able to get working and see if I can find where I'm going wrong.

Keyframe some bones here, raise a foot there, etc.

I'll have several copies of the same working animations as well as one that isn't working, all part of a single set, so I can get through this as fast as I can keep up with. smile.gif


--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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corthew
post Mar 1 2012, 12:25 AM
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QUOTE (Ben_S @ Feb 29 2012, 09:57 AM) *
Edit:
It's not the keyframe culling that is causing the problem - your animation exporter is only exporting one keyframe for some of the tracks.
Which animation creation software are you using, and which cal exporter?
Does it have options about how to export keyframes (such as exporting one each frame for every bone)?


I'll try altering the number of frames total and see if that makes a difference.

Misfit converts fps to keyframe times when it exports to cal and it assumes 30fps.



--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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rampa
post Mar 1 2012, 1:56 AM
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Its been a while since I did any Misfit animation, but I would think its wise to select all bones at every key frame and set a rotation and translation keyframe. The translation is probably only needed for walks and other animations which require the character to translate from one point to another (like your doing smile.gif .
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corthew
post Mar 1 2012, 4:50 AM
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Here are some things I've tried to break a working animation with, (unsuccessfully):

Left foot lower in a middle frame than at either end or beginning frames will not break it.

Not having keys for every bone on a frame with some keyed bones will not break it.

The moving foot dropping below the stationary foot will not break it.

I'll try more ways when I wake up.


--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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Ben_S
post Mar 1 2012, 10:13 AM
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It is possible that just having all the bones keyframed at both the start and the end of the animation would work just fine.


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corthew
post Mar 1 2012, 10:27 AM
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QUOTE (Ben_S @ Mar 1 2012, 06:13 AM) *
It is possible that just having all the bones keyframed at both the start and the end of the animation would work just fine.


It has to be something silly. It can't be a normal thing.

We've tried all the normal things. smile.gif

I always keyframe all bones on first and last.

I thought maybe the animation was too long. 30fps looks better than 60 and with the exception of one, all of the working animations are running at 30fps.

Creating one fresh at 30fps didn't work.

I thought maybe the skeleton had been corrupted. An unnoticed bone stretch.

So I used an unused copy of the milkshape skeleton to create an animation but that also didn't work.

It may be a combination of things, any of which will break it, but so far I've not discovered it.

Back to testing. smile.gif


--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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corthew
post Mar 1 2012, 11:28 AM
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Hey Ben,

How does MS determine the stationary foot position in relation to the floor.

I'm still testing but I just broke it by altering the root bone translations/rotations.

Edit: Also, what is good placement?


--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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corthew
post Mar 1 2012, 12:09 PM
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So far its consistently breaking whenever I translate the root to keep the feet in position.

It doesn't seem to care about anything else. It will slide the character into position if it needs to but weird character motions won't break it.

Adjust the distance from the floor though and it breaks.

Since a character can run, meaning both feet can be off the ground at once, (I tested for that also and it didn't break it), and both feet seem to be perfectly happy below ground, (tested that as well), I'm assuming its either

something to do with the rotation of the legs with respect to Z translation or something along those lines;

or

its not about the Z axis at all. Its somehow related to the motion of the root bone without regard to bone rotation. Possibly some constraints for seeming to veer off the beaten path?



--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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corthew
post Mar 1 2012, 1:10 PM
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It is very consistently the translation. Still not certain if its the Z axis or the direction of motion or an off the beaten path thing.

At least I know I don't need to focus on rotations again once I have them set.

I've been keeping Misfit in the animation window, not saving the mm3d file and undoing the changes I made that broke it before trying a different direction.

Right now I'm fixing an animation I broke.

Next I'll try to fix one that never worked and see if removing root translations alone will fix it or what it takes to fix it.

I'm fairly certain I'll need those translations for the first and last frame but I'll try it without them anyway.


--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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Ben_S
post Mar 1 2012, 1:42 PM
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With regards to the keyframes - for each bone, having a keyframe at the start, one at the end, and one at the frame just before the end which is not precisely the same will be sufficent.

The algorithm for determining the foot stationary positions on the floor is complicated; I might be able to paraphrase:
CODE
For each foot
  go through the keyframes and find the lowest point for that foot after that foot is forwards of the start position of the animation

(Forwards being the direction between the start point of the anim and the end point of the anim)

Note: There are two problems you have encountered - looking at the log should help you determine which is the problem you are having.
The one where there are insufficent keyframes (either because they have been purged from the animation by moviestorm because they are identical, or because they were not exported in the first place) will have an
ArrayIndexOutOfBounds (-1) in the exception.

The other one, which is about foot positions will have an IllegalArgumentException, with a message 'Cant normalize walk cycle'.

I would sugest just doing one new walk cycle at a time, as if any of the walk cycles are broken, subsequent ones may not be processed.


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corthew
post Mar 1 2012, 3:24 PM
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This is interesting.

I'm working on fixing an animation that never worked.

It does now after I removed the last and next to last translations for the root bone.

Of course he just drags his foot over that portion of the animation but MS is allowing it on set.

Now I just need to put translations back in that place the feet where they need to be without upsetting MS.





--------------------
Sango: "If it was really a miracle everyone would have been saved."

Vargas: "But if everyone was saved how would anyone know it was a miracle."

Sango and Vargas arguing over the implications of one person surviving an unexpectedly active tidal season.
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