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#1 Paul_Boland

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 08:49 PM

Hi MovieStorm.

I was just wondering if MovieStorm will contain naked characters, I'm talking about adults, men and women, not children. I used Lionhead Studios The Movies and love it, but one of the quirks it had was no nude models. While I can apprecaite this for a users potential (nude models would need to up the age limit), sometimes you need them. For romantic or other such scenes. One movie I made was a werewolf movie and when my star transformed from a werewolf back to human form, the best I could do was equip him with a pair of briefs. It killed the scene a bit.

I'll understand if MovieStorm aren't planning to support nudity for its characters, but I would welcome it if it was available in the finished product.

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#2 DavidB

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 11:50 AM

Our "base models" have underwear. That is how they will stay.

In a nutshell, if we make nudes, we have to consider the impact on the ratings of every one of the future movies that are made. The implications are serious:

1 - we may never be able to charge for content (as that would infringe in some EU states)
2 - movies could never be on paid downloads (as paid content requires BBFC/EU movie ratings)
3 - some countries (Germany for one) have really odd rules that are far too complex for us to care about :-)
4 - many major banks refuse point blank to deal with credit card acceptance for "adult content" and ... guess what ... nude characters - even 3D models - can be caught by that.
5 - a boxed product would not be likely to be carried by supermarkets, Toys'R'Us or many other mass market outlets, which would seriously impact future sales potential

It is idiocy writ large, but we are a business and have to work around most of that.

What you modders do is up to you, of course.

But, hey, if there is a good content lawyer out there who wants to PM me on this subject, go ahead
David J W Bailey ACA MA MSc GIBiol MInstD

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#3 kkffoo

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 12:03 PM

(DavidB)
Our "base models" have underwear. That is how they will stay.


Brown easy-care wash on 40 degrees but won't show the dirt for a week anyway passion killing underwear.
Almost ....designed to irritate the modding community into a creative flurry..wouldn't you say...
...but don't mention that in your local Tescos.

#4 bongoman

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 06:55 PM

(kkffoo)
(DavidB)
Our "base models" have underwear. That is how they will stay.


Brown easy-care wash on 40 degrees but won't show the dirt for a week anyway passion killing underwear.
Almost ....designed to irritate the modding community into a creative flurry..wouldn't you say...
...but don't mention that in your local Tescos.


Ha ha ha, is that what one calls 'baiting'?

#5 Paul_Boland

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 07:57 PM

Thanks, David. I understand where you are coming from and appreciate it too. I'd still like to have access to anotomically correct nude models. I'm not looking to make a hard core porn movie, but as I mentioned above, in particular to the werewolf movie, a nude model would have come in handy.

If frontal nudity is a problem, would it be possible to at least give us a bare bum on men and women characters? That way a back shot could be done letting the viewer know a character is naked or would this still pose problems? Perhaps you could implement a feature into MovieStorm where by any movies that use such models are automatically labelled with a mature rating when saved out for public viewing? An idea.

But I do understand where you are coming from and if nude characters don't appear in MovieStorm, no worries.

KnightTrek Productions
http://www.iol.ie/~pkb

#6 equinoxx

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 11:22 PM

(Paul_Boland)
If frontal nudity is a problem, would it be possible to at least give us a bare bum on men and women characters?

The beauty of Moviestorm, is that it is designed with an eye toward being openly and extensively moddable, and I have no doubts that once the Moviestorm modding community gets revved up, nudity will very likely be among the earliest "issues" addressed (it just seems to be the way these things go), though "anatomical correctness" may take a while.

The Short Fuze folks have been pretty clear that they don't really have any desire to censor or stifle creativity. Their goal is to provide a tool that will allow us to take ownership of our ideas and run with them, wherever they may lead. So, I think the essence of what's being said here is that, for business reasons, such assets will not be forthcoming from Short Fuze. Which isn't the same as saying that they won't be forthcoming at all. wink.gif
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#7 lucindamc123

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 05:45 PM

Thanks David for explaning so well the problem with having nude characters in this type of software. But I am happy you do not mind that we make mods. I am so used to using subtle nudity anyway, that I kind of prefer it a bit but at least with this software (unlike another package we will not name here), I don't have to have too many flowers and trees adorning character's bedrooms.

#8 DavidB

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 03:19 PM

Somewhere on tape at one of our VC's is a long video interview in which Ann, Dave and I discuss the relevant merits and demerits of Moviestorm Models having nipples but not genitals or body hair. I am glad it is lost in the archive. :-)

Anyway, while we are on the subject, how do you all feel about having "self rated" warnings on posted movies (say like the little icons on the PEGI site http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/181/ )?

Would people apply them reasonably?
Would it help?
Would it make casual visitors feel "safer"?

Thoughts welcome
David J W Bailey ACA MA MSc GIBiol MInstD

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#9 mrjoyce

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 05:00 PM

The idea of the filmmaker being able to select a rating seems fine with me. At least I would feel the viewer would be warned.

But the bigger question is how accessible are the films? It is not like there is someone at the door checking ID's for age. Wouldn't a film rated for adult or mature viewers be like a neon sign to those we mean to "protect"?

Myself, I prefer to have a tag line somewhere on the films info, allowing a few words of warning, by the filmmaker, of any objectionable material in the film.


"The enemy of art is the absence of limitations" - Orson Welles

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#10 Toriel

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 07:12 PM

This is an interesting question. I believe that users would rate their movies fairly (otherwise why bother?)

Will it help? Yes it will. Even an adult could benefit from it. If there is a warning of gore and extreme violence and I don't feel like watching such a movie, I will stay away from it.

Will it make casual visitors feel safe®? I am pretty sure it will.

Of course, it will not prevent anyone from watching any movie they want and I don't think it is the moviemaker's nor you guy's role to police this. I believe that this is a similar debate as the one about violent video games. This is the role of the parents and the adult individuals themselves to police what they watch and what they want to see (what they want their children to see). Unfortunately, in our world of pre-digested and hyper speed consumerism, parents (not everyone of course) seem to try to pass the buck on these matters and not take their responsibilities.

On another note, I fervently hope that you will eventually implement some form of body hair at some point in the future. An easy way (for us at least :mrgreen: ) to implement this could be like a tattoo (similar to scars, wounds, black eyes...) that we could add to an actor. It would also be nice to be able to select the color using the same ones as the hair.
My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely.

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#11 Paul_Boland

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 07:35 PM

I'd be willing to use the rating system for my movies where need be. I also like the idea posted above about an area where we can put some descriptive text explaing what the movie content might be.

And I'd also like to add my voice to characters have body hair.

KnightTrek Productions
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#12 jhollywood2008

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 04:14 PM

The fact is that if you have fully nude, anotomically (spelling?) correct models, someone out there is going to make porn out of it and create a negative stereotype of machinima. It will happen and that will be a bad thing... We want to gain respect for this new type of media, not make a joke of it. Just my two cents smile.gif

#13 DavidB

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 08:52 PM

no anatomy on our models - well, they kinda have nipples but no genitalia. (Would you believe I got both words into the original business plan? :-) )

also agree that putting "no under 18's" on a movie on the internet is usually like putting an open jar of jelly on a picnic cloth under a wasp nest.

Still, we need to think these things through carefully now, before they become an issue later.

For now, I'm happy if characters can hug without getting arms through heads :-)

David J W Bailey ACA MA MSc GIBiol MInstD

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#14 Paul_Boland

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Posted 16 September 2007 - 09:42 PM

Well, I understand and respect that decission. I would still welcome having the option, but I appreciate your point of view. Looking forward to Movie Storm's release.

KnightTrek Productions
http://www.iol.ie/~pkb

#15 maffin

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 06:32 PM

Production tools are one thing - giving access to movies online is another.

Sony are not responsible for people using their camcorders to film each other naked...

Sure, youtube won't show the results but xtube will.

Film makers are responsible for what their films contain and websites are responsible for controlling access and using appropriate warnings.

It's possible to use Moviestorm to make the most evil, racist, violent material imaginable, would that damage the 'Moviestorm' brand if such movies got out there? How would Toys'r'Us feel about stocking a product that *could* be used to make KKK or Al Qaeda movies?

Movies like that might be terrible, perhaps even illegal, but they would not be Moviestorms fault.

Banning genitals just seems a bit silly.
Anyway good luck for the final release.

#16 johnnie

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 10:30 AM

(jhollywood2008)
... someone out there is going to make porn out of it and create a negative stereotype of machinima. It will happen and that will be a bad thing...


It already has. Not with Moviestorm (to the best of my knowledge) but there has been machinima porn. I won't link to any of it on these forums, but take my word for it - it's out there.

(maffin)
Banning genitals just seems a bit silly.


It is extremely silly, but DavidB's reasons for not including anything of that nature in the official Moviestorm release are very valid, and a complete deal-breaker from our point of view I'm afraid.

Bear in mind that (with a few exceptions) most game engines don't provide full nude skins by default. In The Sims 2, for instance, you'll need a third-party user-created skin texture, and the hack to disable pixelating over naked characters. I expect similar hacks and skins will eventually be made by the Moviestorm community - if so, there's not a lot that we can do to prevent it ;-)
Johnnie Ingram
Co-Author, Machinima For Dummies

QUOTE (The Overcast @ July 23 2006)

#17 Ben_S

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 10:56 AM

(maffin)
Banning genitals just seems a bit silly.


I dont think we are banning genitals.

But paying our artists to create things we dont want seems silly.

Ben Sanders
Moviestorm Ltd

#18 zuckerman

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 02:20 PM

No genitals?! Oh, great. The whole reason I got into Moviestorm was so that I could direct my opus -- Forest Hump.

sad.gif




#19 johnnie

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 02:40 PM

Have you ever noticed how many Tom Hanks movies are double-entendres? Sleepless in Seatle. Big. The Ladykillers. Catch Me If You Can. Even his name is a double entendre in Cockney Rhyming Slang.

There are more (and they're even better) but I don't think I can get away with posting them, even as double-entendres. I'll leave it as an excercise for the reader :-)
Johnnie Ingram
Co-Author, Machinima For Dummies

QUOTE (The Overcast @ July 23 2006)

#20 kkffoo

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 03:49 PM

Driving Miss Daisy? No wait, he wasn't in that one was he?

Didn't we vote to have the genitalia hidden by a blinding spotlight..or was that another topic altogether 8)

Anyhoo, I was more wondering when you were ever going to finish this game of scrabble we started Mr Ingram

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