Export Differences

[Reacher]

From watching Amos' excellent tutorials I see how MAX users can work with a different skeleton than the production one - you point to production on export, and only those bones are used for creating the CAL files.
Unfortunately, Blender and Misfit Model exporters don't work that way (not sure about MilkShape). They use the current skeleton in the file you are exporting, which means that additional bones throw everything off.
I have been able to edit the Blender skeleton, removing the non-production bones, and re-ordering the face bones that somehow got moved in the hierarchy. Exporting this skeleton does produce a hierarchically correct skeleton (parent/child correct and all IDs in the right order). But, because Blender picks up the Skinning pose as the rest pose of the skeleton, it is still not really useful.

Would someone consider taking the base MAX file and removing all poses except the rest pose and exporting a .blend? Just to see if we can get a proper base skeleton for Blender.

With a properly posed skeleton, I believe I could edit it down to just the production bones to work with the current exporter. Also, I would be willing to look at adjusting the exporter to only export the production bones, which would allow leaving the current control bones, and perhaps adding some additional IK rigging to the skeleton for easier animation.

-- Reacher

[Chris Ollis]

I'll sort you out an fbx, (which I think was the route I took to get the initial blender skeletons), either that or a collada, hold on...

Email on way

[Reacher]

Collada if you can, I know I can import that. I don't remember if I ever found a good fbx importer.

Thanks,
Reacher

[Reacher]

Sorry for the slow response, but I just figured out that your message was shuffled into my Junk folder for some reason.

Unfortunately I imported the Collada versions and they are still in the 'arms raised, legs apart' pose.

I will look around to see if I can find an fbx that will import to see if that works better.

-- Reacher

[Chris Ollis]

Sorry for the slow response, but I just figured out that your message was shuffled into my Junk folder for some reason.

Unfortunately I imported the Collada versions and they are still in the 'arms raised, legs apart' pose.

I will look around to see if I can find an fbx that will import to see if that works better.

-- Reacher

Really?! how very odd. There should be no reference to them in the files I sent. It must be seriously hardwired in to the Biped rig. Just to double check, we're talking about the skeleton not the mesh here - which would be a skinning/rigging issue not skeletal pose.

hope you can find an fbx importer. any other suggestions just shout.

[Reacher]

Actually it is both the skeleton and the mesh. The only solution I have found for fbx is Autodesk's FBXConverter program.

I tried converting to the following and importing into Blender:
obj - obj doesn't support skeletons, but the mesh was posed correctly.
3ds - 3ds doesn't support skeletons, the mesh was in the skinning pose, and rotated.
dxf - no skeleton, right pose but rotated and offset.

Not looking good for a Blender pipeline.

-- Reacher

[Chris Ollis]

Not looking good for a Blender pipeline.

-- Reacher

Never give in! I'll reinstall blender and try and work something out

[Reacher]

Oddly, I compared the two .DAE files - the original and the base pose only that you sent, and they only differ in the timestamp. So whatever that exporter is looking at it isn't the obvious pose.

-- Reacher

[Reacher]

Chris,
Thanks for all your work in trying different export types. I ended up having to edit the Collada to set the root bone as type="JOINT", the importer would not put it at the top of the hierarchy without that.

Once I got that and edited out the extraneous bits, I was able to put the armature in the correct rest animation keyframe, apply it to the mesh and apply the current pose to the rest pose of the armature.

At this point it all looked good, the skeleton matches up with the included mesh, it also aligns with other .cmf files that I import. It is likely this skeleton can be used for weighting meshes. Although I can see why you have a separate weighting pose, one of the fingers tended to influence the leg in the default weighting.

However, as close as it looks, exporting the skeleton does not produce a csf that is the same as the production csf, and animations distort the meshes using the production skeleton.


I also did a little experimenting with MilkShape today, since it has an 'official' cal3d exporter and can be pointed at the official skeleton when exporting, it should be closer to the MAX pipeline. And I was able to create a character animation. I had some trouble with animation that mixed translation and rotation so I created a rotation only animation and that one worked fine.

I will keep plugging at various combos to see what will work for the various tasks.

-- Reacher

[primaveranz]

Excellent! Surrealist animations

[lucindamc123]

So far I have just used Milkshape and that model. the problem is though the axis are correct for Milkshape but for a puppet to be upright in Moviestorm, it has to lay on the ground in Milkshape, so I exported the mesh as a 3ds max file from Milkshape and imported it into Sketchup and textured it so I could get good groups and imported it into Milkshape but it turned out to be too large. Don't know how the size of the mesh got changed just by exporting it as a 3ds Max file.

I get my new computer on March 1 (64 bit, 8 gigs of ram) , so I am waiting to install Max 2011 on that computer since I bought the Kelly Murdock Bible which comes with a fully functional version of the program, however you only have 30 days to use it before you have to purchase it. So I want to have enough time on the new computer to really test this thoroughly.

So I will keep messing around with it on Milkshape until then.

[Chris Ollis]

-- Reacher

So Blender CAL export can't reference the original skeleton? That's really not good.
Can you write down as simply as possible the export steps for blender for me, I'm really not getting my head around it at all, it just keeps telling me to update Python and write new code, when all I want is to select File/Export/Cal mesh.

[Reacher]

@Chris - sent you some instructions.

I also did a little experimenting with MilkShape today, since it has an 'official' cal3d exporter and can be pointed at the official skeleton when exporting, it should be closer to the MAX pipeline. And I was able to create a character animation. I had some trouble with animation that mixed translation and rotation so I created a rotation only animation and that one worked fine.

Turns out I was mistaken in the Milkshape test, the provided files are oriented incorrectly. Turns out the success I was having was through loading the production skeleton through the cal importer of MisfitModel3D and then saving as .ms3d. Currently seems to be the best option (other than MAX) for character animations. You can also animate directly in Misfit, but it is a bit less friendly for selecting the joint to animate.

-- Reacher

[Chris Ollis]

@Chris - sent you some instructions.

Turns out I was mistaken in the Milkshape test, the provided files are oriented incorrectly. Turns out the success I was having was through loading the production skeleton through the cal importer of MisfitModel3D and then saving as .ms3d. Currently seems to be the best option (other than MAX) for character animations. You can also animate directly in Misfit, but it is a bit less friendly for selecting the joint to animate.

-- Reacher

If you have a better skeleton Base file, please attach it/make it available to everyone on this forum. The sooner we narrow down a working pipeline the better.

[lucindamc123]

Oh good, please release the skeleton as that is the problem I am having with the Milkshape Skeleton.

[Reacher]

If you have a better skeleton Base file, please attach it/make it available to everyone on this forum. The sooner we narrow down a working pipeline the better.

I documented how to get these back on 2-Feb, but I guess I can clean up my versions and package them for those that missed it.

-- Reacher

[Reacher]

Here they are, I haven't fully tested them, but anybody with a spirit of adventure is welcome to give them a try.
I created these fresh from costumes/heads in Base/Core.

MilkShape4Moviestorm.zip

-- Reacher

[Poulet Noir]

Just tried opening Reacher's revamped version of the Female Skeleton in Milkshape, then risked clicking on the 'Draw vertex weights' and 'Draw vertices with bone colours' options under 'Joints', both of which caused Instant Milkshape Death with the originally released version.

The attachment shows a screen grab for the 'bone colours' option. Beautiful!

 Fem_skel_Reacher.jpg ( 105.16K ) Number of downloads: 26



Thank you for sharing this, you have saved a lot of people a lot of time and angst.

[lucindamc123]

Great, thanks for doing this. You have saved me a lot of work and time.

[rampa]

Thank you Reacher!