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How many modders who don't want their mods in commercial products?


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#21 kkffoo

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 02:09 PM

I'm afraid it isn't easy.
Staff here have made if perfectly clear that they don't want this kind of hassle but it always happens, and you never really know who is going to be a pain in the butt about it.
It is one thing to give a credit on the moviestorm video upload page, where other stormers would be glad to know who made what mod, but it makes no sense at all if you want to release a film commercially.
Nobody buying your film on amazon is going to want to download a moviestorm mod, so it just winds up being an ego exercise to mention myriads of modders.
Unless someone's mod makes a substantial contribution to your film (they built the whole space station, most of the costumes) it seems unreasonable to feel obliged to do so.
It's probably better to avoid free mods for commercial projects unless the modder states explicitly that they don't need a credit (this is just my opinion) and I think it is up to any modder to be clear on every release if they don't want their mods used commercially without credit.


#22 lucindamc123

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 03:01 PM

When you make a commercial movie or even if you just get a movie on TV but don't get paid, you have to have clearance for rights for everything used in your movie, music, props, voice actors, etc. A distributor will require that you have in writing clearance from everyone and this is something I am working on now for The Man from Schenectady. And I think it is nice to credit everyone who has done anything in your movie. I even put modders on my IMDB listings for my movies and other film makers have done the same for me.

#23 Nahton

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 03:10 PM

My experience on the TMO/TMU sites was that it was always expected you credit your modders. Actually, some reviewers would flame you if you failed to credit the modders and forget about any positive aspects of the film. Needless to say, I always made it a practice to credit my modders. I'd try to keep a running text file as I made a film of the mods I used and in some cases when I downloaded them I put the modders name in the file. Could it be a painful process to keep track of all the mods? Absolutely. I always looked upon it as being part of the movie making process, along the lines of crediting your music or your voice actors.

The other benefit to listing the mods at the end of the movie along with who created them is it came become a resource for other filmmakers who may see something in your movie they'd like to use. I'm not a prolific modder by any stretch of the imagination but I think I'd like to be credited for anyone using my mod(s). As far as commercial or non-commercial use, I don't really care and I never specified they couldn't be used for commercial use so have at it. My sliders were modeled from scratch as are all my mods (the remainder having not been released as yet) so there are no other commercial licensing concerns. I think where you have to be careful is when a modder has used an image or model from another source that may not be licensed for commercial use. Admittedly, you could find yourself in a situation where the modder has not done his or her due diligence to attribute the original modeler and cite their attribution requirements or limitations and hence become negligent by proxy.

Sorry, I realize that getting into the finer details of attribution can potentially suck all the fun out of moviemaking but that's the reality of the situation as I see it.



#24 kkffoo

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 04:00 PM

What you are asking is clearly impossible.

Studios employ people to keep track of assets, and even they only credit certain things. With machinima the whole world is created.
Imagine a studio having to credit the makers of each paving slab in a street scene.

Machinima movies are generally made by one person, or a small team

I wish we had a system like the one that freesound use.
Any downloaded sample is logged and you can link back to your own page which shows an attribution list.
see mine here
http://www.freesound...n.php?id=184728

#25 Nahton

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 05:08 PM

QUOTE (kkffoo @ Feb 6 2011, 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What you are asking is clearly impossible.


Oh boy, I may have not stated that too clearly but I am not asking anyone to follow my pratice although if I'm asking people to credit my mods I guess I kind of am unsure.gif

I was just trying to relate what I have observed to be the practice on TMO/TMU and as I'm not usually one to buck the system I just went along with what everyone else was doing.

I can see your point about how it could become impossible to keep track of every and all mods in the ever expanding machinima universe. I actually put my name in my only published mod release and it's in my planned future ones as well so as far as MovieStorm goes it's kind of in your face when you select the asset in the prop window. I didn't really do that to ensure I got credit but more to make it easier for a user to credit me.

Strangly enough, while I haven't credited anyone for a pavement slab, I have actually credited someone for a floor tile. blink.gif

#26 ehughes

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 06:45 PM

I think it's an important discussion to have guys. I don't know where i saw it on here, but someone mentioned their mod and not wanting it in commercial products. And I thought, oh wow. I hope I didn't use that guy's stuff. Usually Machinimods, for example, the licensing information is there "free to use" etc. But I know I was plenty leary in my new project, about whether or not should use mods in movie because I didn't want to step on any toes. But I at least know where others stand.

#27 lucindamc123

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 07:57 PM

QUOTE (ehughes @ Feb 6 2011, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think it's an important discussion to have guys. I don't know where i saw it on here, but someone mentioned their mod and not wanting it in commercial products. And I thought, oh wow. I hope I didn't use that guy's stuff. Usually Machinimods, for example, the licensing information is there "free to use" etc. But I know I was plenty leary in my new project, about whether or not should use mods in movie because I didn't want to step on any toes. But I at least know where others stand.


Do you remember what the mod was? If you remember what it looked like, I might be able to figure out who made it. I usually only use the mods I make in my movies unless I ask someone specifically to make one for me or in the case of the Manhattan set which I got from 3d Warehouse, I credited the modder with his actual name and also put him on my IMDB page. He was very happy about that too. I don't really think it is all that difficult to keep track of what you use in a movie whether it is music or props. I just type up a list on Notepad.

#28 Chris Ollis

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 08:20 PM

The logical thing is don't make your mods available if you don't want them used.

and if you want them used, don't demand how they are used or credited.

The nature of machinima, amateur film making and web animation is that it's generally quick, thrown together and done for little to no budget. Credits are an after thought and the creator is lucky if he or she remembers to thank their own mum for doing the voice of the background character 3 minutes in. It's to be expected that a mod used is not likely to be credited, but if the director does remember and can squeeze a note in then that's great, it helps the creator and the community should they be looking for that mod.

Keep it friendly, give credit where you can and don't get annoyed if your name is left off, just be happy your mod found a good home and in your eyes was the best bit of the movie wink.gif
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#29 andy_price

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 08:45 PM

There is a differences between commercial and non-commercial movies. if the movie is commercial then the modders should most deferentially be credited, after all you are making money from someone else mod. however for no commercial movies, credit would be a nice thought but not obligatory.



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#30 kkffoo

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 08:58 PM

I wonder how much money?
From one mod?
Let's say a movie maker was lucky enough to make £100
The profit is....£10, (more likely -£50)

Say a mod contributes £0.05 to a movie's profits, does that need a credit?
What if it is £0.01?
How about £0.000000003 (street light seen in distance for 3 seconds)

How much do you think commercial movies make?

I really don't think anyone is ripping you off Andy blink.gif



#31 andy_price

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 09:11 PM

QUOTE (kkffoo @ Feb 6 2011, 08:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I really don't think anyone is ripping you off Andy blink.gif


I never suggested that they were, I was just pointing out that all contributors to a commercial project should be credited. In real cinema productions, even the boy who makes the tea gets a credit.

Its not just a case of giving credit, it is also helping people in making their own movies. how many of you have put a post on these forums that say something like "I saw a frying pan in a x`s movie, I really need it for my movie, where can I get it??" - by the way the frying pan was made by davidwww -

I always credit everyone who has helped in making one of my films, no matter how small their contribution is, even though my movies are not commercial. It is just a case of common curticey



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#32 primaveranz

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 09:11 PM

QUOTE (andy_price @ Feb 7 2011, 07:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
if the movie is commercial then the modders should most deferentially be credited, after all you are making money from someone else mod.


I guess that depends on whether it was a free mod or a paid for one.
If I paid for a mod I would expect to have the right to use it uncredited. If nothing was put in writing at the time of purchase I wouldn't feel obliged to (and to be honest) if something was put in writing - I wouldn't buy it.

But if it was free, I would do my best to remember who provided it - and I might even be deferential when I did it tongue.gif

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#33 Chris Ollis

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 10:10 PM

QUOTE (andy_price @ Feb 6 2011, 08:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is a differences between commercial and non-commercial movies. if the movie is commercial then the modders should most deferentially be credited, after all you are making money from someone else mod. however for no commercial movies, credit would be a nice thought but not obligatory.


Why? films don't credit every piece of set dressing they use. Costume departments don't need to credit the original seamstress of an off the rail outfit. And location shots don't require the sign off from the builders who built the houses in the background.

I'm not saying you shouldn't put stipulations on your mods, but I would suggest you put noticeable ones on them that people downloading them really aren't going to miss, because with the majority of mods being made to be used by anyone without any required credit, a casual moviestorm film maker may accidentally use them and find themselves in trouble when their non-commercial film suddenly gets picked up by a distributor.
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#34 lucindamc123

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 10:28 PM


The difference there is probably that the seamstress is an employee of the studio and the construction workers were paid to build the houses in the background and might also be employees of the studio.

#35 lucindamc123

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 10:32 PM


I agree with you Andy and even for movies you don't get paid for if you get them on TV as I have you have to stipulate that you have the rights to everything used in the movie or video clip.

#36 primaveranz

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 10:58 PM

QUOTE (lucindamc123 @ Feb 7 2011, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
you have to stipulate that you have the rights to everything used in the movie or video clip.


The easiest route therefore, is to only use props by people who freely give you those rights. when you install them. It is a hard enough process as it is without having to worry about being sued because you forgot to credit someone.
Anyway people will gradually learn to avoid those modders who are difficult about it. Unless, of course they are producing high quality work that no-one else can, and the director is desperate.

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#37 andy_price

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 11:18 PM

I think that a lot of people have got the wrong end of the stick.... most modders including me don`t demand credit, and would not sue if they did not get it, but they would be grateful of the credit, so that others can get the advantage of knowing where the mods came from, so that they can use them as well



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#38 luxaeternam

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 07:33 AM

It seems to me that the only logical options are (a) publish for free with a CC attribution licence, or (cool.gif sell it and let the buyer use it as he wishes.

Edit: the letter 'b' gets automatically transformed into a smiley
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#39 kkffoo

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 08:03 AM

I wonder if this thread might have worked better the other way round. What if we establish a list of 'safe' modders. Those who are cool for their mods to be used in the widest possible way (in movies) and do not expect a credit in that context.

It gets trickier when you get into other derivative works. Most people wouldn't want to give away their mods for free and then have someone repackage them and sell them on.


#40 Chris Ollis

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 08:39 AM

QUOTE (kkffoo @ Feb 7 2011, 08:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wonder if this thread might have worked better the other way round. What if we establish a list of 'safe' modders. Those who are cool for their mods to be used in the widest possible way (in movies) and do not expect a credit in that context.

It gets trickier when you get into other derivative works. Most people wouldn't want to give away their mods for free and then have someone repackage them and sell them on.


The problem with that is people have to know where to refer to. And a lot of users don't frequent these forums.

I'm tempted to try and get an official stance on this, something along the lines of unless otherwise stated all user generated Moviestorm mods, commercial or free are royalty free for movie making use, but if possible credit should be given either in the movie description or credits.
Redistribution without the creators consent is forbidden.

Then if you want to put in rules you can on your own hosting/inside the zip/wherever people get the mods from.
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