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#1 Guest_yolise_*

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:11 PM

Made another small change...

There was a feature where people could actually see what ratings a movie was given and by whom. I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, and in fact, one person has already contacted me because they left a poor rating by mistake and felt bad.

So, I've hidden this for now. It's very easy to bring back and actually only shows the latest 5 ratings (and who left them), so this post is intended to start a discussion as to whether people think it's a good idea or not.

On the one hand, it might improve accountability - people might be less willing to be mean-spirited if people know who did it.

On the other, it could make for some bad feelings, especially when ratings are left by accident as was the case that prompted this.

What do you think?

#2 William87

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:18 PM

I like the fact that you could see who voted and what they rated.

I was gonna say something more but my ears are too cold at the moment, can't think properly.

#3 kkffoo

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:29 PM

The last time the users were polled, most didn't want five star ratings at all, hence the thumbs up system.
I realise there are many new users now so opinions could have changed, but I was somewhat surprised that such an unpopular feature was included in the upgrade.

#4 Walvince

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:31 PM

I think most of us are adult enough to accept ratings from people. The ideal should be members to decide if they want their rating to be visible or not...
Sorry in advance for my bad english^^


#5 Overman

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:38 PM

QUOTE (Walvince @ May 13 2009, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think most of us are adult enough to accept ratings from people. The ideal should be members to decide if they want their rating to be visible or not...


Exactamente. If feasible, make it a "privacy" option one can turn on for one's self if one wants to broadcast what one rates, off by default. And yes, using "one" so many times in ONE sentence is annoying, sorry.
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#6 kkffoo

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:49 PM

I admire your optimism.

#7 Fulkster

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 07:55 PM

I'm one of the old foogies that is with kkffoo (not that SHE is a foogy by any means) on this. Either you like something (thumb-up) or not. I don't care for the "how much did you like it" rating, because I don't want to explain/justify myself.

I'd like the popularity of a flick to be measured by how many folks (with a limited number of links) link to it... and have the links reset monthly or quarterly- not the whole population at once, but 30 or 90 days from when the link itself was set.

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#8 iceaxe

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 08:18 PM

I'm all for knowing who left poor ratings. Especially if it tells me where they live smile.gif

I quite liked the old thumbs up system (even though many people never actually spotted the button to grant a thumbs up...) I am a bit saddened to see my 30 odd thumbs that I got for Clockwork have turned to dust though.

#9 Overman

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 08:28 PM

Here's how I've come to see it. And let me preface this with the fact that I greatly respect that some people feel differently on this.

The only problem I see with a binary Up/Down rating system is that, for me anyway, I'm VERY interested in the difference between a video people think is okay, a video people like, and a video people really like. Under a binary system, all of these would logically receive the exact same rating.

I self-analyze my work a lot after it's released. If something is loved vs. just liked in a lukewarm way, I dissect it and try to determine what qualities made that film more likable to my audience. I'd personally miss the ability to study that in that kind of detail.

As for quantity of ratings, I see no evidence on any video sharing sites to indicate that people are going to be more inclined to click a thumb up than they are to click a star level. Some people rate (a lot), some don't (at all), and some only rate when they like something enough to do so and abstain when they don't like something. I believe the majority of those who do rate will use whatever system is available, so I'm inclined to go with the one that communicates the most information to the creator of the video. Those who don't rate are going to abstain from either system as well. And those who are only motivated to rate when they like are still only going to rate when they like. The difference will be that they'll be able to tell the creator of the video less about how they feel in that one click... and for some people, that's all the feedback you'll get from them, since the number of people who leave a comment are almost always a smaller subset of the audience who rates.

(Number of views, that's an entirely different measure of audience response, and one that's going to be around regardless of the rating system so no need to go into that.)
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#10 Guest_yolise_*

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 09:23 PM

QUOTE (kkffoo @ May 13 2009, 07:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The last time the users were polled, most didn't want five star ratings at all, hence the thumbs up system.
I realise there are many new users now so opinions could have changed, but I was somewhat surprised that such an unpopular feature was included in the upgrade.


Well, the software is white label. We didn't write it. We decided that the vast number of new features would outweigh that issue. It would be difficult to change, but could be done if people find that it's a big problem.

Let's see if anyone else chimes in on this. Like I said, it's easy to turn it back on. Not so easy to turn it into an option. Harder still to re-engineer the whole rating system to use thumbs up again.

#11 sisch

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 09:24 PM

Hmm, I'm in two minds about this - I remember too well how the rating system was abused on the old TMO movie site, how often you got revenge reviews if you left something less than a 5 on the movie of someone - some of the problems I see are

a) a lot of people seem to think, or feel compelled to, hand out 5 star ratings for everything, for a lot of reasons - they know and like the director and don't want to hurt her/him, and apparently, nothing but a 5 star will do for that - at least it was like that on the TM site in the end; they hope that by leaving a 5 star rating they will enduce ratings on their own movies, a rate-mine-favourably-and-I-rate-yours favourably kind of circle... and endless discussions ensue....

b ) the more users find their way here and start making movies, the more the system will be abused.

What I really care for are the comments, not the stars, so the thumbs up feature was okay for me.

On the other hand, I feel much as Phil does - I want feedback on my films, and a lot of people don't want to leave a long review. So the possibility of giving a star rating at least shows you how many people have watched...

On the TMU movie site, there's an option to disable star rating while leaving comments on.
Maybe that would be a good compromise?

#12 AngriBuddhist

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 09:37 PM

I'd have to say that 'accountability' isn't a very good reason to have names be viewable along with the ratings.

Like mentioned, it can easily lead to revenge ratings, trading of favors, and pressure to rate one way or the other to avoid either of those. If a poll is anonymous, it's easier to lie, but, it's also easier to tell the truth.

If someone feels strongly enough about your film, they can still leave a comment which displays your name.

#13 Overman

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 10:41 PM

QUOTE (sisch @ May 13 2009, 09:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
On the TMU movie site, there's an option to disable star rating while leaving comments on.
Maybe that would be a good compromise?


The good news is, this is already an option here (just like on YouTube) on a per-film basis. A director can (at any time) turn off ratings for any of their videos. I don't use it very often on YouTube, but it can come in handy sometimes.
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#14 lucindamc123

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 10:47 PM

QUOTE (Overman @ May 13 2009, 10:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The good news is, this is already an option here (just like on YouTube) on a per-film basis. A director can (at any time) turn off ratings for any of their videos. I don't use it very often on YouTube, but it can come in handy sometimes.


I care about the comments. I don't care about the ratings and I think this will be abused. Is there a way we can opt out of accepting ratings at all?

The thumbs up was fine and I used that a lot. I would rather say something good about something or just not say anything at all.

And there are unfortunately people who will get an accoun there just to one star people. I think we saw that from the other night when we had all the porn spam and personally, I had death threats that night.


#15 Overman

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 10:56 PM

QUOTE (lucindamc123 @ May 13 2009, 10:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I care about the comments. I don't care about the ratings and I think this will be abused. Is there a way we can opt out of accepting ratings at all?


Yes, as I said, it's already an option here. EDIT your film, you'll see the radio buttons to turn off accepting ratings.
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#16 Overman

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Posted 13 May 2009 - 11:10 PM

RE: Ratings Abuse (those who've raised it)

I know what you're saying. We're all aware that the Internet is open to idiots and nice people alike, and we've all encountered our share of idiots.

But how about let's ask Short Fuze to address a ratings abuse problem when it actually materializes, rather than react to something that has not happened yet, or has happened somewhere else? I don't think the potential for abuse by idiots is good reason not to give some kind of ratings system a chance. There is an equal chance that an imbecile will abuse the forum, abuse the movie comments, abuse the channel comments, abuse private messages, abuse the "block" feature, or abuse the movie uploader by putting up donkey pornography. We don't propose shutting down those things for everyone just because idiots can abuse them; we deal with the idiots when they appear.

There's no system and no place for sharing one's creative work that is idiot-proof. An idiot is going to find a way to try to hurt someone whether there is a thumb or stars or theater masks or a poseable hangman doll. I don't think taking useful tools away from the nice, reasonable, adult majority is the best way to deal with idiots, any more than closing a museum is a good way to protect the art from vandals, or making everyone patronize a store in the nude is a good way to prevent shoplifting.

/rant off tongue.gif
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#17 tkd27

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 01:00 AM

Can't the stars just be anonymous? I didn't even realize that the names were viewable at all...

I'd think the comments are where people can put their name to an actual statement about the movie.

#18 kkffoo

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 06:54 AM

I think the potential problem with an opt-out system is if viewers are allowed to sort by ratings.
In that case opting out might mean less views than a movie might have received if everyone was on the same system.

I understand Phil's desire for detailed feedback, I think the desire is universal.
I don't know if anyone is aware of a system sims99 have adopted to address this issue, the sims movie workshop.

Thread
http://www.sims99.co...isplay.php?f=89
there are a few posts on rules, but this seems the most important;
http://www.sims99.co...ead.php?t=16304

They ask member to review five movies for each movie they are allowed to submit to the review queue.
There are standards for reviewing, and in that group the members must link to their comments, and submit their own movies within a certain time-frame.

It would need at least one person to monitor the system and accept member applicants, but I wonder if a version of this might work here?

#19 mellowhardy

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 07:26 AM

I think the 'thumbs up' system was better. If you liked something, you registered that liking. If you didn't, you moved on by. It was all about the movie.

Like somebody said, with this system you can actually set out to give somebody a negative review by giving them one star. And that might be because you don't like them. At least if you didn't like them before, you couldn't affect the standing of the movie if other people liked it.

Or am I being paranoid? laugh.gif

#20 William87

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 07:55 AM

QUOTE (mellowhardy @ May 14 2009, 07:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the 'thumbs up' system was better. If you liked something, you registered that liking. If you didn't, you moved on by. It was all about the movie.

Like somebody said, with this system you can actually set out to give somebody a negative review by giving them one star. And that might be because you don't like them. At least if you didn't like them before, you couldn't affect the standing of the movie if other people liked it.

Or am I being paranoid? laugh.gif


Well, if that person is set out to give a revenge review, with this system, you'll see who it is, and I'd think that person would rather give their negative review as anonymous.

Of course, with the thumbs up system, that person probably would've just passed as well.

The rating system isn't that important to be honest. A comment/feedback is worth such more than a simple thumbs up/rating though.


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