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Thoughts on Moviestorm no longer being Free.


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#1 3designsimulations

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 04:18 AM

Hello,

I started to think about some things since I found out Moviestorm is NO longer a FREE program, one of them is the "advertisment" that you were suggested to put up, and since MS was free, I thought it was a good deal, but now that MS is no longer free, are we still suggested to put this up, or can we keep it quiet? I still plan to tell people where it is made, but sometimes my mind slips to add it to the credits or the description, and I am wondering if I would get away with it now that we pay to use this program.

#2 celestina

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 07:46 AM

QUOTE (3designsimulations @ Apr 10 2010, 04:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello,

I started to think about some things since I found out Moviestorm is NO longer a FREE program, one of them is the "advertisment" that you were suggested to put up, and since MS was free, I thought it was a good deal, but now that MS is no longer free, are we still suggested to put this up, or can we keep it quiet? I still plan to tell people where it is made, but sometimes my mind slips to add it to the credits or the description, and I am wondering if I would get away with it now that we pay to use this program.


Good discussion question. I would guess that we still need to credit everyone for everything we use. For example, Phil Collins was probably paid a lot of money for his music for the Disney film but he is still credited for the song. That's not a terribly good example as he also sings the song... but I think this would follow. Maybe a better example would be the credits for film processing ie. 'Techicolor' or sound - DTS, Dolby Digital etc... at the end of a film?

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#3 3designsimulations

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 08:18 AM

QUOTE (celestina @ Apr 10 2010, 07:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good discussion question. I would guess that we still need to credit everyone for everything we use. For example, Phil Collins was probably paid a lot of money for his music for the Disney film but he is still credited for the song. That's not a terribly good example as he also sings the song... but I think this would follow. Maybe a better example would be the credits for film processing ie. 'Techicolor' or sound - DTS, Dolby Digital etc... at the end of a film?


Normally a written contract is made and signed by both parties, which normally have an agreement for credits to be given.

In a Music Video often you do not see "credits" or "watermarks" on them, those sometimes ruin the illusion, so this is why I am bringing this up, "credits" in a Music video doesn't look good, normally at the beginning and end of a music video briefly there is an overlay of information such as:

Song Name
Song Singer
Album
Copyright

It may not be exactely like that but it is close. I personally feel that since we are now paying to use the program we should not be required to say what we used to create this.

Take this as an example:

When you create a Machinima Movie, normally when and if there are credits, do you see this:

________Title Name__________

<List of Actors>
<Game used>
Adobe Photoshop CS4, Autodesk 3dsmax 2010, Adobe After Effects were used.

Normally you'd only see the first three lines, not what programs are used to edit it, even in the proffesional movies, all you see is Actors, Directors, Producers, Cameramen/women, Special Effects, etc, not what program was used to edit the video, or to make it, just the cast members.



#4 celestina

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 08:30 AM

Right, thank you for explaining it, I didn't think of it like this... yes, you are right. I would be interested in the answer to this too.

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#5 Chris Ollis

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 08:42 AM

QUOTE (3designsimulations @ Apr 10 2010, 08:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Take this as an example:
When you create a Machinima Movie, normally when and if there are credits, do you see this:

________Title Name__________

<List of Actors>
<Game used>
Adobe Photoshop CS4, Autodesk 3dsmax 2010, Adobe After Effects were used.

Normally you'd only see the first three lines, not what programs are used to edit it, even in the proffesional movies, all you see is Actors, Directors, Producers, Cameramen/women, Special Effects, etc, not what program was used to edit the video, or to make it, just the cast members.


Moviestorm in this case would be the "game" used so I would say we were still eligible
As for movie credits, most films credit the companies that make the software, but aside from that, aren't we the foley, lighting providers, camera providers, wardrobe, etc etc wink.gif
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#6 celestina

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 08:54 AM

QUOTE (Chris Ollis @ Apr 10 2010, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Moviestorm in this case would be the "game" used so I would say we were still eligible
As for movie credits, most films credit the companies that make the software, but aside from that, aren't we the foley, lighting providers, camera providers, wardrobe, etc etc wink.gif


Thank you Chris.

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#7 kv

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 09:06 AM

I have made a habit of crediting anyone involved in my films, it also helps for anyone who watches and thinks oooooh how did they do that, or wonder what they used for that? Credits are not always just about advertising, in the machinima community it can be about little hints of who/what is used to achieve the final production.

Thats just me though rolleyes.gif

#8 3designsimulations

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 10:05 PM

QUOTE (Chris Ollis @ Apr 10 2010, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Moviestorm in this case would be the "game" used so I would say we were still eligible
As for movie credits, most films credit the companies that make the software, but aside from that, aren't we the foley, lighting providers, camera providers, wardrobe, etc etc wink.gif


What happens if it isn't a machinima style movie, and is a regular movie, would we still need the credit?

#9 Killian

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 11:42 PM

It's really a no-brainer; it's simple courtesy to credit ANYONE who provided help in any way, shape or form in enabling someone to complete a movie project (ok, it might be stretching it to list utility suppliers, your ISP, etc, in the credits, but you know what I mean! biggrin.gif); voice over artists, modders, musicians, writers, etc, should all be given their due in any movie.

#10 steelblade

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 12:56 AM

So far the thoughts have been to credits, but that's not the only issue.

Now that we are required to pay up front, and yearly at that, is there a point to spacing out the release of MS points? If we have to pay so much ($80 a year) and then wait till we can actually use some of the things we've paid for. Or we can pay MORE for the privilige of using them sooner.

If we are paying, then we shouldn't have to wait to actually get what we've paid for. Perhaps we can still see a free base version, (reverts to the base version after 30 days trial period without subscription) and a pro version. Most importantly, we should be able to have a less expensive 'no additional points' version of the subscription. ANd mod shop access for any paying user right out of the box, though not during the 30 day trial. Not enough time in 30 days to learn it.

So... 1) Free base version 2) yearly subscription for pro version which has full access to all addons, both MS and 3rd party. 3) Points for MS addons (And 3rd party ones if they ever get hosted here) can be bought in blocks that are awarded at time of purchase, no more waiting.

Them's my recommendations and I'm sticking to them. smile.gif

#11 sfdex

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 08:27 PM

As someone who produces video projects for a living, and who has worked on a number of professional films, I have an opinion on the credit issue.

When Moviestorm was free, the requirement that we include "Made Using Moviestorm" or something similar was, in my mind, payment for use of the free software. I was providing something of worth -- namely advertising -- in exchange for a license to use Moviestorm. Now that it is a paid product, I believe it should be no more a requirement to say "Made Using Moviestorm" than it is to say "Edited with Adobe Premiere Pro" or "Sound Recorded using Sound Forge."

Think about it; when you see a professional video production or a professional film, you very rarely see something like "Edited Using Apple's Final Cut Pro Studio." Yes, there are credits often for the film stock, the camera manufacturer, etc, but the software is almost never mentioned. This is because camera manufacturers and film stock providers often provide some kind of compensation to the production company (discounted rental or purchase price, for example) in exchange for the listing within the credits.

Moviestorm is no longer providing compensation in the form of free software license to us as moviemakers. We are required to pay -- and I'm perfectly willing to pay -- to use the software. But the requirement that all movies made using Moviestorm must include a credit is now anachronistic.

I believe this requirement should be removed from the EULA for the software.

That's not to say that you shouldn't put a credit in your film for Moviestorm if you want to, just like many filmmakers do include credits for the various software packages they use. In truth, for the most part I would still include the credit even if the requirement were removed. I just believe it should no longer be required.

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#12 jleao

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 08:38 PM

sfdex you said it all...it was like you were in my head rolleyes.gif

In fact, when Moviestorm was free, naming it on the credits (as a courtesy and i don´t really think it was an obligation) was the right thing to do. Now, that we have to pay (and i agree on paying for this great tool) there´s no real need to do it. I think that is up to the director...if he really feels the need to. But, then, why don´t we credit Adobe Premiere, Final cut, 3ds max,blender, soundbooth, etc? One reason to credit Moviestorm is if they, for exemple, give you points for free as an agreement to get credited or something similar. I don´t mean any disrespect to Shortfuze, but i don´t really see a reason to credit Moviestorm otherwise.

#13 Chris Ollis

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 09:08 PM

QUOTE (3designsimulations @ Apr 10 2010, 10:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What happens if it isn't a machinima style movie, and is a regular movie, would we still need the credit?


I don't quite follow.
Machinima (cg engine movies) credits the game, which to some people Moviestorm is regarderd as such.
CG movies credit the software manufacturers - check Pixar films for Renderman etc, most effects driven stuff have thanks to Softimage, etc.

I'm not saying how it is here though, just how I see the credits on movies
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#14 Armanus

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 09:36 PM

QUOTE (steelblade @ Apr 10 2010, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If we are paying, then we shouldn't have to wait to actually get what we've paid for. Perhaps we can still see a free base version, (reverts to the base version after 30 days trial period without subscription) and a pro version.


I agree. If you have to pay in order to even use the software or the content, it doesn't make sense to not have instant access to all content. If I'm required to pay for the ability to use any content, it is counter-intuitive to have to also use points to get access to the content. By having to subscribe in order to use any of it at all, it should be an all or nothing situation. This is what I would recommend:

You can download 1.2 or 1.3+ .
1.2 is free, and subscription gets points for purchasing content. Content works without subscription. It's basically the same as the former system, but 1.2 gets no further support.

1.3 is as it is intended to be - you have to subscribe in order to use the software. All addons made by MSL are available to use immediately, without the need to purchase with points. This content is only instantly accessible in 1.3 ....if you wanted to use it in 1.2, you need to purchase the license as you do currently.

QUOTE (sfdex @ Apr 12 2010, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Moviestorm is no longer providing compensation in the form of free software license to us as moviemakers. We are required to pay -- and I'm perfectly willing to pay -- to use the software. But the requirement that all movies made using Moviestorm must include a credit is now anachronistic.

I believe this requirement should be removed from the EULA for the software.

That's not to say that you shouldn't put a credit in your film for Moviestorm if you want to, just like many filmmakers do include credits for the various software packages they use. In truth, for the most part I would still include the credit even if the requirement were removed. I just believe it should no longer be required.


I agree. I would also continue to give them credit, both out of courtesy and my desire to support MS and hopefully help generate business.

But I do think that this should no longer be a requirement, for the reasons you gave.


QUOTE (jleao @ Apr 12 2010, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In fact, when Moviestorm was free, naming it on the credits (as a courtesy and i don´t really think it was an obligation) was the right thing to do.


As long as I can remember, it has been a requirement under the EULA that you give credit to MS, whether you put it in your credits, use the "Made with Moviestorm" video, or credit them in the movie description on a site where the video is posted.


#15 Armanus

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 09:38 PM

QUOTE (3designsimulations @ Apr 10 2010, 04:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What happens if it isn't a machinima style movie, and is a regular movie, would we still need the credit?


If your movie is made with MS, in whole or in part, then according to the EULA you need to give credit.

BTW, what exactly is a machinima-style movie?

#16 alonzo11208

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 10:26 PM

Um....on the "instant content" thing, I think you guys are forgetting something...

Essentially, if they did that, you guys do know the price may jump from only $8/month, to more that is way out my pocket, the average consumer. Should they reword it so it doesn't give the impression of havig everything when you subscribe? Possibly?

But having everything avaliable to you when you sub....get ready to dish out a large chunk of cash and say bye bye to most of the community.

In any event, I know I'll still be subscribing to MS and purchasing ADDON content packs....which is by far cheaper than my monthly computer game spendage.

Remember: MS is software....expensive stuff at that. Push too hard and eventually, you may end up with something you may not like
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#17 Armanus

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 12:04 AM

I disagree. What exactly would be the point of purchasing content you cannot use unless you are subscribed? The content is useless unless you are paying the subscription, so I don't see a reason to have to purchase it further.

I don't see the logic behind the idea that this will increase the subscription cost. Right now you buy content with points, and that is the source of income, content. You can use 1.2 for free. The point of the subscription is the content. With 1.3 that changes. The program itself is the source of income. Content gives the program value. It is in no way a direct source of income. That said, allowing users instant access does nothing to hurt MS economically, since it is not a revenue source. Allowing instant access gives the subscription-only 1.3 use more value, generating more business. Having to subscribe just to use the stuff, then having to also use points to get content, is an unnecessary restriction, and could be perceived as some kind of racket.

With 1.3, it boils down to this IMO.....it's all or nothing. I subscribe to use it, or I get to use nothing. It should be that way with content. If they unsubscribe, they can't use it anyway, so what difference does it make? There's no reason why the new model can't work out just as well for the subscriber as it does MSL.

#18 celestina

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 07:54 AM

Isn't the 'access all content' only available for 30 days for new subscribers and is what we as subscribers are getting at the moment? After this, if they want to continue to use the program & packs they will need to subscribe and either buy or rent the packs? I am guessing they will only be able to rent for the trial period?

But as you say... if you stop subscribing and cannot use the program after that, then why buy the packs in the first place as you wouldn't have a program to use them in (especially those packs that are only compatible with 1.3). Not sure how that works. (ie. with the subscription model).

I think Moviestorm is already looking into a way of offering 1.2 free so that all previously bought user packs (and of course the program) will still work. I guess this will be something similar to Iclone?

Thank you all for explaining how film makers do not/use credits... I am learning so much smile.gif

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#19 alonzo11208

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 09:44 AM

You're right, the purchase and renting of content packs, is their source of revenue, if they were to simply change the model, to where you have access to all of it, once you subscribe, then thats one hell of a HUGE money lost. Hence where I said the sub price will go up, so as to compensate for the money lost.
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#20 jleao

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 10:37 AM

Chris, i´m probably wrong, but I believe people credit games and game engines because they´re either copyrighted games or free apps. They weren´t acquired or paid for. Like if i use a comercial music, ofcourse i will credit the owners (and even so i´m probably be at risk). If you buy an app or pay for a license to use it, sorry to say but, no, i shouldn´t be obliged to credit...altough in the case of Moviestorm i would (probably) do it because i feel good about it (that doesn´t mean i believe it should be a requirement in the Eula and i support the idea that this rule should be abolished).

Also, if you speak to anyone on the production team of a hollywood movie, you will quickly understand that if renderman or maya are included at the credits, that´s because there is some kind of deal going on...that´s not because they think they have to as courtesy.

Once again, i believe short fuze should not restrict the author´s freedom to credit or not Moviestorm, especially because we are paying now to have a license to use it. Shortfuze must understand something: Until now people played with the software freely and there was no reason for any of us to criticize waht we would get for free (we could and should in a positive way)....but now, the game changed completely: Short fuze responsability to us (paying and loyal users) is bigger. And some old rules shouldn´t apply, like any obligation to credit. I use ICLONE too, and i have no obligation to credit them.

I give you a real exemple when it would be not good to credit Moviestorm: Let´s say (and that´s not my case, just an exemple) i´m offering my service as free lance and i don´t want my business rival to know how the hell am i doing such nice 3d movies in such a speed. If i credit your software, i´m will probably loose the advantage. I know that would be nice to Shortfuze because it would mean one or more clients coming your way, but it would not be so good to my business, right?

And that happens a lot with some specialty software, and i know that for experience.

Just try and call some business and ask for the software they use, or the codecs they use...you´re most probably will feel that they don´t want to tell you everything, right. Maybe they say they use Final cut or Premiere because that´s what everyone uses, but they will keep some other tools to themselves. Do you believe they will put it on a movie credit? Really?

Just food for tought...and Chris, did i say you rock? Keep on making us brilliant 3d models and characters, cheers.


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